The Fightins'
Nov
03
2010
Jayson Werth Reportedly Turned Down Midseason Extension
Posted by Dash Treyhorn at 3:58 pm ET 339 Comments

In what should be a surprise to no one, Jayson Werth reportedly shot down a contract extension from the Phillies earlier this summer, according to Sports Illustrated’s Jon Heyman:

“The Phillies are said by a source to have initially suggested this summer a repeat of the deal Jason Bay got from the Mets last offseason, which would mean $66 million over four years. But that was summarily rejected by Werth, and he is shooting to redo the $120 million, seven-year contract Matt Holliday got from the Cardinals.”

Given that Werth was heading towards free agency as one of the best hitters in a fairly weak class and that he was most likely already in cahoots with Scott Boras, this news is nothing more than filler on an idle Wednesday early in the free agency period.

While an offer of $16.5MM/year over four years would be considered an overpayment for most players who were nearly out of baseball four years ago, it is decidedly under market value for Werth, who represents the lone Right Handed Five Tool Corner Outfielder party among the current batch of free agents.

Although the veracity of this report is still in question, it certainly makes perfect sense for Amaro and Co. to shoot low during the season in hopes that Werth would acquiesce  and take a “home town discount.” Still, it is the opinion of this blogger that the $16.5MM/year salary would be better spent on a certain left-handed pitcher who is very much a fan favorite among the Philadelphia faithful.

339 Responses to “Jayson Werth Reportedly Turned Down Midseason Extension”

  1. Swift says:

    Well… I didn’t realize that he turned down a 4/66 deal in the extension; and the fact that he did doesn’t bode well for the team. I doubt they’d be willing to offer him a 5 year deal. As much as I’d like them to, I don’t see it happening. Makes you wonder what the outfield is going to look like next year, and how insanely left-handed the line up will be now. I don’t like it…

  2. Steve says:

    old news…

  3. Sarge's Special Barbecue Sauce says:

    Larry Bowa said this on Mike Miss the other week

  4. John K says:

    aw man

  5. Eric says:

    2 and 3 – I don’t listen to talk radio, so this is news to me. Some of us still read blogs to get some information. But thanks for the heads up, you two really added a lot to the discussion.

    If this news of the extension is true, we get to look forward to Werth’s pending press conference that is going to sound a lot like Lee and Lopes’.. “Man I really wanted to stay but…” If you assholes want to stay, then fucking stay. This isn’t rocket science.

  6. Swift says:

    @Eric, well said. It’s not like 4 years, with 66 Million is a slap in the face to Werth. If he wants to stay so badly, then he’ll accept the Phillies offer.

  7. You would like to see Cliff Lee back rather than a bat that would help to rejuvenate the offense somehow?

  8. Two-bite says:

    Eric, agreed. The “man I really wanted to say, but..” thing is getting old. These players are getting paid far more than the normal person out there. While trying to get the most money possible is understandable, don’t play the…this is the Phillies fault card. A 16/17 million/year contract for Werth is probably more than I would pay and since he turned that down, I can only imagine he wants more. The other problem is he is on the wrong side of 30, as are many of our players. Giving him a deal longer than 4 years is only going to do harm further down the line when we have a 36 year old first baseman, second baseman, and right fielder. Once again, I don’t blame them for going for their money, but its hard to feel sorry for them when you have players on this team that have taken less to be here…ie Halladay or Utley, who took security over money.

  9. Morandini's Triple Play says:

    Eric, do you really have to be such a dick all the time? God man, lighten up.

  10. Jayson Werth's Wallet says:

    Getting fatter by the second. Maybe I’ll weight more than Howard’s soon.

  11. bigmyc says:

    Holy turd cakes, Dash. You might be on to someting there.

    Werth for Cliff?…. I like the sound of that. I really do. Especially if Lee was willing to sign for less than five years.

    Hell, at that point, I’d don’t think it’d matter that much how soon Dom Brown came around. Bat the kid in front of Chooch, let him see some pitches, run in front of Carlos Contact and enjoy Joe Blanton as your 5th.

    Very nice.

  12. bigmyc says:

    This left handed batting lopsidedness is a little overwrought, I think.

    Without Werth, they would still be at a 50% ratio. Now, I realize it’s about the middle of the lineup, you can eventually bat Brown anywhere in the lineup. Even going into this year, you could move Chooch ahead of Ibanez. Really, the only problem you’d have is Utley into Howard but it’s been that way for a while. I don’t really see the problem here.

  13. Swift says:

    @bigmyc, I’d expect them to platoon left-field too. Given Raul’s rapid decline, you have to run a right handed batter out to face lefties, and I’d say toss Benny Fresh an extension for just that role. That adds another half-decent right handed bat to the lineup.

  14. Scott Boras says:

    I guess you people don’t get it. So you this great fanbase, well represented in the Delaware Valley and around the country. The Phillies have done a great job with their franchise in the last few years. So what? What does that have anything to do with my client’s pursuit of his true value?
    Nothing, that’s what. The hometown discount is a nice notion, but it ain’t the smart bet…especially when a player has already tasted the pinnacle of the baseball world. After that, he just wants to be properly compensated at a level commensurate with his abilities. No one wants to be cut short. You wanna feel appreciated for what you do.

    Look, not every low ball offer is an insult. In this case, I won’t comment on the Phillies’ offer as it relates to that. I can tell you that $66million is a lot of money. But is it quite on par with what Jayson’s skill set dictates?

    Don’t blame him for cashing in on what he is worth. And by all means, it is normal to go where the money is at while still wishing you could stay in town. Believe me, the guy wants to stick around. He understands the business. It’s a tough decision for him. But he will do what’s best for his future.

    Appreciatively yours, Scott Boras

  15. will.H says:

    more than doubled his salary.. 66 million in total.

    I wonder if he hired Satan Boras before or after this offer. WTF Jayson? I’d be pretty excited if i made more than Chase Utley. 3rd highest paid player on the team isn’t too shabby is it, behind Halladay and Howard. Watch him leave for Boston for 17 or 18 per. And the length? Shit, they’ll pay anyone.

  16. Adam Eaton says:

    Mother fucker.

    Aw man.

  17. Phylan says:

    Some of you guys need to learn what “market value” is and understand that a player will obviously want to get it for themselves

    That being said, Werth is not going to get a Holliday type of deal, which was an overpayment for Holliday as well. If he would take 5/$100 or perhaps 4/$80 I’d be fine with that, but the Phillies probably aren’t in a position to be handing out that kind of AAV. I like your sentiment Dash, but you’re probably not going to get Cliff Lee for $16.5 AAV either.

  18. SAIDatSAID.com says:

    I would love to agree, but you’re not going to get Cliff Lee unless you double (nearly triple?) that figure and add a couple years.

  19. will.H says:

    I understand what market value is, and I understand that 20 mil per year would be almost tripling his salary. If he’s 5 tool, he’s the lowest end 5 tooler around. I wouldn’t expect him to make the same amount as Roy Halladay, would you Phylan?

  20. Scott Boras says:

    #15, no kiddin’. You don’t say?

    Lemme tell you, that last fact isn’t lost on myself or my client.

  21. MoyerIsMyHero says:

    I don’t think we need to sign Lee, but I wouldn’t mind it. Especially since that would mean he doesn’t go to NY. And that’s not even coming from a place of hating the Yankees as a rule, or even their tendancy to buy the biggest free agents. There’s just something in the atmosphere around the Lee-Yankees talk that I find very distasteful. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I think it’s just the issue of how the Yankees (and media) seem to have no doubts that it will happen.

    The MLB RSS feed today had the headline “Yankees make signing Cliff Lee a priority.” It didn’t say as much, but it came across like you would see a headline about a team making resigning one of their stars a priority – the implication is that we already have him, it’s just a matter of coming to the right terms.

    The last two years there was a lot of that with Philly and Halladay – but it was always “can they make a deal?” With this it seems like the question is just “how much will the Yankees pay Cliff Lee?”

  22. Mike P says:

    Yeah, Cliff Lee isn’t coming back. There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell. The man is going to make $23/year for 6-7 years, and while the Phils apparently have some money to play with, they don’t have that kind of budget. I love the optimism, though.

  23. Phylan says:

    Yes, because Roy Halladay is signed to a ridiculously below market deal, and, more to the point, he’s a pitcher, so that’s not a good comparison. 20 million per year is almost tripling his salary, but that’s because his current contract was signed right after 2008, where it was unclear whether he could carry over his enormous production to a full time capacity. He can. He was paid $7 million this year, but he provided much more value than that.

    I don’t see how he’s the “lowest end” 5 tooler around, maybe you could explain that.

  24. Jamie Moyer, drenched in Champagne, having the time of his Life says:

    Wait, did Scott Boras just post on here or is that someone being really dillusional?

  25. Clown punch says:

    Maybe after his ass hammering in the WS, he tanked his value. We could get him off the bargain rack!

    If so, who starts opening day? I know the answer but do you?

  26. I don’t see the big deal here, folks.

    If another hospital was willing to pay be twice as much as my current hospital offered, I’d take it.

    I’ll make new fans in my new home, which will thereafter become my hometown. No discounts, though.

  27. MoyerIsMyHero says:

    There’s still that little voice inside of me saying: Maybe Lee will think back to Yankees fans throwing beer bottles into his bullpen or Nick Swisher talking shit about him and say “hey, fuck those guys – I can probably get almost as much from some other team”

  28. Jayson Werth says:

    What’s so delusional? Are you sayin’ that my bro agent doesn’t know what he’s doing?
    You need to step it back a little, bud.

  29. bigmyc says:

    Don’t forget the biggy; Ms. Lee sitting through a Bronx spit storm and enduring constant epithets. I think she got soaked with beer. Gotta add this one…every little bit helps.

  30. Phan Stuck in nyc says:

    The voracity of this report is definitely in question, especially being as Werth’s ex-agent Jeff Borris said they never spoke to him. Wasn’t there an article at Philly.com that disputed this story already? More hooey the FO is putting out to make Werth look worse when they DO low-ball him and he turns it down.

    Meanwhile, anyone who thinks Cliff Lee would take that low sum is nuts. After he made it known last week that he still has bad feelings toward the Phillies, and considering whatever the Yankees will offer him — no way will Cliffy take that.

  31. Phylan says:

    Dash clarified that he said the money could go towards Lee, not that it would be enough. Where did you read Cliff say he still has bad feelings towards Philly?

  32. To clear up something: I didn’t mean to imply that $16.5MM/year over four would be enough to sign Lee, only that it could be put towards the money that would be needed to sign him. Conservatively, it will take at least $20MM per year over four to get Cliff to come back – and that’s very conservative.

  33. About the Phillies, he admitted to inner conflict.

    “I had kind of mixed emotions, to be honest with you.” Lee said. “I pulled for a lot of those guys, but it’s weird. When a team gets rid of you, you kind of like seeing them lose a little bit. I know that’s weird, but part of me wanted them to win where I could face them in the World Series, too. It would have been a lot of fun.

    “When a team gets rid of you, it’s funny how you have a knack for stepping up a little more when you face them. There’s a little more incentive to beat them, and that’s definitely the case with me. I was in between. I let that series play out, and I pulled for those guys individually, but I didn’t mind seeing them get beat, either, just because they got rid of me.”

  34. Pedro says:

    you people keep talking about having a left handed heavy lineup, but don’t forget about John Mayberry Jr. He’s done pretty good when he’s played for us the last two years. If we dump Ibanez and Werth and bring up Brown and Mayberry, our Right/Left ratio stays the same and we have young talent in the outfield.

  35. bigmyc says:

    He said it not so long ago. It would be a natural emotion and not surprising. He’s been to two teams since he’s been here and another WS. Philadelphia is long gone from his rear view mirror. Anything could happen. I think the cash bags coming out of NY are gonna be too much for him to say no to. He’s got a buddy in NY already and his wife has one with his buddy’s wife. That can’t hurt the situation and would probably neutralize the ill will that Cliff’s wife has toward the NY fans.

  36. Aye. I don’t read Lee’s comments as hating Philadelphia. No different than having a gal break up with you, then you wanting to run into her while you’re with your new hot bitch.

  37. Greenman! says:

    I bet fan since 09 is probably happy about possibly using the money to get Lee

  38. Phylan says:

    you people keep talking about having a left handed heavy lineup, but don’t forget about John Mayberry Jr. He’s done pretty good when he’s played for us the last two years.

    Not to mention Utley doesn’t do any worse against lefties than righties, and in fact has done better against them in the last two years. So it’s not like bringing a lefty reliever in to face the 3-4-5 or what have you will be entirely effective.

  39. Eric says:

    bigmyc – Only thing we can’t account for is the premium certain guys put on happiness. Lee knows he had fun here and we know that’s true. Some guys just don’t feel the need to chase the monster pay day in free agency. A guy like Werth said he wants to try it because he may enjoy it. But you also have guys like Madson and Halladay that signed a reasonable deal for security and happiness. At this point we just have to hope Lee really wants to come here and would accept it on our terms. Seems unlikely, but it’s not out of the question.

  40. bsizzle says:

    If I remember correctly, on MLBtraderumors there was a report that we offered Lee a 3/60 deal which he turned down before we traded him. So the $16.5 AAV wouldn’t have gotten Lee anyway.

  41. Ozzie Guillen says:

    Ahaba la Jayson Werth, blabba ab rih hanen bat. Obba sabba cago why sogs.

  42. Spam,Spam,Spam,Spam, says:

    I can´t seem to bury how marmoreal was to reduce my whiskers patch a tub without shower mirrors.

    But I don’t like Spam.

  43. Bozo says:

    I haven’t read through all the comments yet but some of you guys are so two-faced. “If we keep Werth we will have some guys in their mid 30′s” then it swithces to “Let’s sign CLIFF LEE, who probably wants atleast 5 years and is already 31/32″

    All these suggestions for Ben Francisco are driving me absolutely crazy, I don’t know how any of you can think he is a super bench player with potential to be an every day player on another team. He makes terrible plays in the outfield and only swings for the fences.

  44. Bozo says:

    And to add onto the whole “left handed heavy lineup”, Utley hits lefites fine, Howard had his highest career average vs lefties(I think) by a good margin(and hit well over .300 after July something or whatever the date was) and Brown has good numbers in the minors against LHP.

    Aside from an improvement in average Howard seemed to lay off the junk pitches a little better and let’s not forget that he had a great postseason vs tough LHP.

  45. Nino Espinosa says:

    I would never lock anyone in for 7 years these days. Good luck Jayson on your obscure AL team that will not make the playoffs because you blew out their budget.

  46. Bobby D says:

    25 bucks to loot the spectrum on Saturday morning! Just thought that’d go over pretty well here.

    If you can carry it out, it’s yours.

    Werth’s as good as gone. Domo time.

  47. will.H says:

    bozo, i wont argue with franciscos one dimensional swing.. but he is not a terrible outfielder.

  48. Greenman! says:

    I think someone said it earlier, but I don’t think Jayson cares about the playoffs. He has his ring and he wants his paycheck now.

  49. I went to K-Mart and saw that guy says:

    Astros interviewing our best friend Milt Thompson? I got mixed emotions.

  50. Bozo says:

    Francisco is pretty fucking bad in the OF. He tries to make highlight reel plays when they are impossible and turns balls into an extra base or run. He’s done it since he has been here and I’m sure Charlie has seen it or he probably would have given Francisco more than 30 PAs or whatever in a 2-3 month span.

  51. maria says:

    #49, of course they are.

  52. BigMiles says:

    It seems like a lot of us here have our heads on straight, but as a fanbase we are mostly overvaluing Werth. This guy is an incredible talent but is not a 16-20 million a year player. He almost drove me to alcoholism this year with his swing, which was really gone down the tubes since he started producing for us in 2007 and 2008. The guy is a one time all-star, and he only made it that one time cause his manager picked him at the last moment. I understand it leaves us with a big hole in our lineup because of the side of the plate he stands on, but you can find someone for half of that money on a one-two year deal who can platoon with Dom and give us acceptable production.

    As most of you know, in 1993 the Phils platooned three different positions (RF, LF, 2B):

    In right, Eisenrich hit .318 with 7 bombs and 54 RBI and Chamberlain hit .282 with 12 bombs and 45 RBI.
    In left, Inky hit .274 with 24 HR and 89 RBI and Papa Thompson hit .262 with 4 HR and 44 RBI.

    The point is that by creating favorable matchups you can go a long way with less talent. This of course isn’t taking into account Werth’s speed or defense but we just need to get creative and find a better way to better our team then throwing cash at Jayson Werth.

    Also, fuck Scott Barry.

  53. John K says:

    Why are people getting mad at the player? I mean, this is the one shot Jayson Werth will have for a big payday. I’m going to be extremely sad to see him go, but I will be happy for him if he gets paid off somewhere else too. Love that guy

  54. Tyson says:

    Personally, I would rather they pull all stops to make bringing Cliff Lee back a reality. Think about the potential of that rotation. The apparent shortcomings of our offense would definitely be offset by phenomenal pitching.

    Look at what SF did with a superb rotation this postseason. Not that ours wasn’t great, but there’s was just that much better for a series.

    There are a lot of options here in the offseason, all including trade possibilities with Blanton, Ibanez and Lidge. I’m very interested to see how it all shakes out.

    One thing is apparent though. Ruben seems deathly afraid of how old this team is, and will do whatever it takes to inject some youth.

  55. Greenman! says:

    meh the Triple A is a little depleted but we have a lot of good looking players in double A and single A. I’m not really too concerned with the young players. Plus Philly has been drawing a crowd and making a lot of money lately so we can always sign young stars in the future if we have to.

  56. J says:

    New blog idea:

    “I want to go to the Phillies with Cliff Lee”

    Someone get on that.

  57. Buddy's Watchin says:

    Live in Portland, Oregon…does anyone know a podcast I can get to keep up on Philly sports talk? I searched “WIP” and “Angelo Cataldi” but nothing comes up.

  58. Greenman! says:

    you shouldn’t be listening to WIP period.

  59. Buddy, WIP is trash. 97.5 FM isn’t much better but they aren’t ready to set their sights on 2014 (actual Howard “The Ship is Sinking” Eskin quote two days before we acquired Oswalt) and look forward to several weeks of meaningless Eagles preseason games. You can listen to the Fanatic live on-line.

  60. Bozo says:

    Eh, did my links of Ben Francisco’s OF plays get deleted or did it just not go through? It said it was awaiting moderation, guess I’ll try posting em again.

  61. Moose says:

    I know it makes no sense, but I just feel like the Phillies are gonna make a play at Beltre. Since his monster year in 04(?) I just had a feelin ghim and the Phillies were gonna be a match somehow. But then again he is 30 as well, has Boras as his agent also, and we have Polanco. I’d much rather have Beltre

  62. Bozo says:

    Meh, links won’t go through for whatever reason. Oh well.

    Beltre can fuck right off, he got a huge contract after a big year and sucked then when it’s contract time again he starts playing again?

  63. maria says:

    Bozo, if you post too many links in one comment, it has to await moderation because it looks like spam.

    I would definitely take Polanco over Beltre. Also, enough with mentioning trade talks involving Brad Lidge.

  64. Greenman! says:

    honestly I see us getting Rowand and maybe Chan Ho. I don’t think we really need a lot of roster moves. The offense is there, it just fell asleep in 10. Injuries didn’t help that. Pitching is superb, the only whole is the middle bullpen. Chan Ho would be cheap and maybe we could offer Moyer a minor league contract but I bet pop pop wants to start. Also I plan on running over Danys Baez, if no one has done so by March.

  65. maria says:

    I also don’t think it ever gets approved. You just have post the links in a few comments.

  66. Greenman! says:

    Maria I agree, I don’t want to see Lidge go anywhere and I don’t think Rube does either. Him, Madson and Contreras were money last season.

  67. Bozo says:

    Not to stick up for Baez but take this into consideration, Baez was unhittable in Spring Training and Contreras was a “concern” in Spring Training. There’s no reason Baez can’t help the team if he can find any sort of consistency.

    Where do you keep seeing talks of trading Brad Lidge because I haven’t heard of it. In a way it’d be kind of smart if they think Lidge can’t duplicate his 2010 success and want to trade him and make Madson the closer. Either way, I’m fine with Lidge closing.

  68. Greg says:

    Baez has a strong arm. If he can control his pitches a bit better, put them where they’re called, I know he can be reliable. He has the stuff. He consistently throws hard. The only problem is most of his pitches turn out flat and are hit hard.

  69. Phylan says:

    It seems like a lot of us here have our heads on straight, but as a fanbase we are mostly overvaluing Werth. This guy is an incredible talent but is not a 16-20 million a year player. He almost drove me to alcoholism this year with his swing, which was really gone down the tubes since he started producing for us in 2007 and 2008.

    16-20 million a year is the kind of money you pay for an incredible talent, as it happens. And I didn’t notice anything different with his swing, what are you talking about? If anything is different it was an improvement, because Werth had his best season yet.

    2007: .298/.404/.458
    2008: .273/.363/.498
    2009: .268/.373/.506
    2010: .296/.388/.532

    But I didn’t see anything different, he was just showed even better patience than he already had been. If you’re talking about the swing-and-miss where he goes to one knee, he had always done that. Maybe you just started noticing more.

  70. Phylan says:

    Baez has never really been good outside of seasons with a comically low BABIP. He’s had a K/BB over 2 three times in nine seasons, and only once since 2005. He’s not going to magically become a good pitcher at this point, it was just a stupid signing.

  71. Greg says:

    Yeah, after reading my last post, it does seem very vague that all of the things I stated could hold true to any pitcher who throws hard >_> It’s a shame he doesn’t throw more like Contreras. They both seem similar, but Contreras gets outs.

  72. Cliff Lee says:

    I’ll be back guys, check my site to hold you over till’ Ruben signs me.

  73. Maera says:

    Werth isn’t coming back. I wish him well until whatever team he plays on plays the Phillies and then he can fuck right off.

    I don’t know if that offer is real but it’s stupid to want to give Werth more than four years. If they Phillies gave him five, six, or seven years at roughly 16-17 million a year that would be a huge mistake just to hold onto to him. That’s the sort of money Matt Holliday got and Carl Crawford is gonna get. That’s the sort of contract and money Jayson Werth is probably looking for and he’s not worth it.

    There are better/cheaper solutions. Even a short term solution (a one year deal to an aging outfielder) would be better than committing to 5+ years with Werth.

  74. chen says:

    We already have the best pitching staff in the big leagues. As much as I would like to have my cake and eat it too, to keep Werth (albeit long-term, likely) and forget Lee (likely to be another short-term deal) would maintain that balance we need in the offense.

    As much as I don’t like his rejection of an INSANE amount of money in exchange for the possibility of more years, they gotta keep trying for Werth, it’s possible.

  75. chen says:

    *best ROTATION in the bigs

  76. Bozo says:

    We won’t hear anything solid about Werth until the Phillies say it themselves, imo. Maybe we’d here it sooner if Jim Salisbury would get off his high horse along with the other beat writers and does some actual reporting instead of saying “Werth won’t be back”. And if Jayson does resign then whoever breaks the story will pretend they are a genius.

  77. Tim says:

    Thanks for posting those numbers Phylan. I keep hearing people (some here, some elsewhere) talk about Werth falling off. I don’t understand how some folks out there don’t realize that he just had the best year of his career (a 145 ops+). That being said, given the age of this team (and of Werth himself), I’d still be wary about signing him for more than just a couple of years, which, given his potential value on the free agent market, would probably mean not signing him at all.

  78. bigmyc says:

    Werth’s lack or percieved lack of consistency is why people feel that he has tailed off. Even though his numbers support him, the phans have seen their share of swings and misses in big spots this year…much like most of the lineup.

    I wonder how he would do in a lineup without the protective presence of a Howard or an Utley or a Jimmy Rollins. I think the guy is worth whatever he can get but the returns might be diluted on another team. If his eye stays steady, he may get walked more than ever. If he gets frustrated, he may strike out more than ever trying to do too much by swinging at less than ideal pitches. At any rate, the next team won’t be paying him to walk 90 ft. all year.

  79. will.H says:

    i think the “falling off” crowd has to do with general perception. Some of Werth’s bonehead plays in the field this season add to the stigma. That along with over 300 K’s the last two seasons.. added on to the surprisingly bad RISP avg might make people look past the career high in OPS. All im saying is.. i can see why people would feel that way despite a decent average and a good amount of extrabase hits. If he turned down a 16.5 per extension.. i wonder what he’s waiting/looking for. Probably something a little too rich for what the Phils are willing to pay.

  80. bigmyc says:

    It’s the Matt Holliday payday level that he’s going for. This is not to say he will actually get it. But, if he can come close to that type of moola, he’ll have done very well for himself. I might argue that Werth is more valuable than Holliday..especially at this juncture. That guy is a basic liability in the outfield. Not so with JW. If Werth ever learns his strike zone as completely as possible, he’ll definitely be worth whatever Holliday gets. Until then, I don’t see how he could command that stupid amount of $.

    Of course, that doesn’t mean he won’t end up getting it either.

  81. Bozo says:

    The bad thing about Werth’s numbers is that he had like 12 homers and over 20 doubles in the first month in a half then sucked for like two months where his BA went from around .350>.270>.300>.280 and then seemed to hover around .300 for the rest of the season. Obviously the pace he was on early in the season is hard to maintain for anyone.

  82. bigmyc says:

    Bozo, this is exactly the type of circumstance that leads me to be suspicious of the SABR way of classifying everything.

    How does the old saying go? “There are lies. Damned lies. And then there’s statistics.”
    Baseball is about numbers but it seems that the Bill James way of looking the sport leads the devoted followers to often miss the forrest whilst looking through all those trees.

  83. Greenman! says:

    except for numbers are more factual and reliable than a person’s opinion…

  84. Bill Clement; U.S. Citizen says:

    True, however, the statement should be; “It is important to be mindful that numbers are more factual and reliable..”

    or even; “..except that numbers are more factual..”

  85. bigmyc says:

    Yeah, I understand that, but if you read my first sentence, you’ll see that I cite this particular situation regarding Werth’s last season and his impressive numbers. Basically to me, numbers don’t automatically = a like result in another arena or situation.

  86. Phylan says:

    One way to ensure I will not read the rest of your post is to say “How does the old saying go??” with a fake ass folksy demeanor.

    Anyhow, consistency is overrated. At the end of the year, if a guy is going to hit .300/.400/.500, I don’t care if it’s spread out or bunched together. That happens in baseball. Every player has slumps. Werth had a particularly bad one this year, but he had just as long a period of absolute dominance, and it happened to fall in September/October, when he hit .300/.369/fucking.600, and as I understand it even the SABR haters give bonus points for crushing the ball in the fall. By month:

    Split BA OBP SLG OPS
    April/March .325 .402 .584 .987
    May .271 .340 .573 .913
    June .286 .396 .488 .884
    July .305 .414 .463 .877
    August .294 .405 .490 .895
    Sept/Oct .300 .369 .600 .969

    Another thing I think is often overlooked is that he is a perfectly competent center fielder, the Phils just already have a guy for that. That ups his value even more. Someone up there said Philly overvalues Jayson Werth; judging by this thread I’m tempted to say they undervalue him.

  87. Greenman! says:

    Bill I told you to stop following me.

  88. Bozo says:

    His slump seemed way worse than the stats. Either way, I’m rooting for Werth to be back.

  89. FanSince09 now Former Fan says:

    Sign Lee. Trade Hammels to LA for MATT KEMP!

  90. Howard Eskin says:

    incase anyone forgot… I EAT COCK

  91. bigmyc says:

    Not sure what will become of the rest of my day if I have ensured that you won’t read the rest of my post.

    What exactly is a “fake ass folksy demeanor?” I doubt that you could even explain it as it pertains to my post.

    And you are incorrect about consistency being overrated. One of the ideas about a player being clutch is that you can count on him in big spots in a fairly regular way. For instance, if there was a guy who had outstanding numbers in games that his team won in landslides and virtually had no GWRBI, I’d say that was a player I’d stay away from giving big money to. Another player who put the same numbers up in more meaningful situations would get my vote. Of course, that’s just me trying to be smart about the situation.

    Of course, you’re free to choose another direction.

  92. Eric says:

    Post 95 is going to make Phylan’s head explode.

  93. Phylan's Head says:

    KABOOM!

  94. bigmyc says:

    Talk about shooting for the green only to put it into the cup..

  95. Greenman! says:

    Well you know what they say when it comes to Jayson Werth, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Don’t count your chickens before they hatch, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

  96. Bill Clement, former Flyer and newly annointed U.S. citizen says:

    Actually, there should be a comma after, “well,” and the comma after, “Werth” should actually be a semi-colon.

    Also, your second sentence is a run-on.

    I think we need some work.

  97. Greenman! says:

    what is this? I don’t even.

  98. Gay Robot says:

    Um kay, who needs a wax and shine?

  99. Phylan says:

    And you are incorrect about consistency being overrated. One of the ideas about a player being clutch is that you can count on him in big spots in a fairly regular way. For instance, if there was a guy who had outstanding numbers in games that his team won in landslides and virtually had no GWRBI, I’d say that was a player I’d stay away from giving big money to. Another player who put the same numbers up in more meaningful situations would get my vote. Of course, that’s just me trying to be smart about the situation.

    The funny thing is, if you actually perform an analysis looking for players who consistently get hits “in big spots” over the course of their career, you will find that they don’t actually exist.

  100. Tim says:

    Agreed Phylan. It’s also pretty (intellectually) inconsistent to desire consistency from a player but also want him to be really good in clutch situations. If you like consistency, you want them to hit just as well or just as poorly in high-leverage situations as in any other situation. You can’t be both “good in the clutch” and consistent. Also, bigmyc, I’m glad that you’re out there trying to be smart about the situation. I’m also really glad that Ruben Amaro is the Phils’ GM and not you.

  101. Phylan says:

    Also why are we conflating consistency and clutchness? They’re two separate principles, although I do think both are overrated, by a lot.

  102. Phylan says:

    Woops Tim beat me to it

  103. Nalyhp says:

    I don’t know, I think consistency and clutchness are pretty important.

  104. bigmyc says:

    Yeah, no. Actually, what you’d like from a player is to not rack up most of his numbers in a comparitively small number of games. That’s where the consistency comes aspect comes from and it is patently incorrect to suggest that you can’t be a clutch hitter and consistent at the same time. Consistency is what can enable a player to be clutch. While it’s known that players are streaky to differing degrees, it is asinine and myopic to believe that they all follow along the same homogenous production lines.

    Funny, your post, #104, looks like you don’t know which way to take it since apparently Ruben agrees with me…you’d have probably served yourself better if you just hadn’t offered your $.02 and saved yourself the pain and trouble of having to think about it.

  105. Gay Robot says:

    May-be you and me can hang out some-time, # one-zero-three. We seem to have a lot in com-mon. Hol-la at your boy. Peace out.

  106. jimmy says:

    i’m craving a hatfield dollar dog night.

  107. Tim says:

    Isn’t being clutch being able to play better than you normally do in big situations? Wouldn’t that, by definition, be inconsistent?

  108. Eric says:

    At least bigmyc has proven to be a bigger blowhard than me. At least I generate some discussion. That guy is a fucking joke.

  109. Confresi Beach says:

    this is BS.

    It’s obvious that ball players produce at different rates no matter how close their sum totals are.
    Stats are a guideline. They’re not the end all be all. Go to a game or watch the shit on tv. That can tell you plenty about what’s up.

  110. Tim says:

    And I don’t think Ruben would really agree with you. I don’t think he’s worried too much about GWRBI (a statistic MLB hasn’t actually tracked since the 80s). I think, if he decides to make an offer for a player, he’s a lot more concerned with statistics that somewhat accurately measure a player’s value.

  111. bigmyc says:

    Tim, to answer your question; “no” and then, “yes.”

    but you do realize that “no” to the first question renders your affirmative, “yes” on the second as absolutely worthless, don’t you?

  112. Tim says:

    Confresi, if we’re sitting here on this blog talking about this stuff, don’t you think we’re also going to the games and watching them? We’re fans, and we love the game; that’s why we care about this stuff.

  113. Phylan says:

    Yeah, no. Actually, what you’d like from a player is to not rack up most of his numbers in a comparitively small number of games. That’s where the consistency comes aspect comes from and it is patently incorrect to suggest that you can’t be a clutch hitter and consistent at the same time. Consistency is what can enable a player to be clutch. While it’s known that players are streaky to differing degrees, it is asinine and myopic to believe that they all follow along the same homogenous production lines.

    None of this really makes any sense, and a good deal of it is self-contradictory. The bigmyc experience.

  114. bigmyc says:

    Yeah, you’re right. If I was gonna pay a player Donald Trump money, I wouldn’t care if he happens to have a penchant for winning games with his stick. Why would I want that kind of player?

    Stellar post #114.

  115. Tim says:

    Whoa, you just blew my mind! You mean that an answer to one question can actually have a bearing on a different one! Tell me more about how your system of thought and logic work, I’m so intrigued.

  116. Confresi Beach says:

    I get that but I don’t get the hard on for straight numbers.

    I mean, I feel that we place too much value on raw data. It’s how the data correlates to something that we find the real value. You can’t tell me that one ball player with 30 dingers does the exact same for his team as another player with 30 dingers.

  117. Gay Robot says:

    Hey, Tim. You seem like my kin-da guy. Wan-na hang out some time, maybe get a lat-te. I find dumb guys ir-re-sist-a-ble.

  118. Phylan says:

    I get that but I don’t get the hard on for straight numbers.

    I mean, I feel that we place too much value on raw data. It’s how the data correlates to something that we find the real value. You can’t tell me that one ball player with 30 dingers does the exact same for his team as another player with 30 dingers.

    Correlation is a huge part of statistics though? The emphasis on OPS came when people realized that OBP and SLG were the traditional stats that correlated most to a team’s runs scored. And of course two 30 HR players can be totally different, that’s why you look at their average, obp, slug, strikeout rate, walk rate, etc. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you here.

  119. bigmyc says:

    #117, if the test is too difficult, you shouldn’t blame it for your failing marks. Just take your goals down a notch and work up from there.

  120. Tim says:

    Well the reason a lot of us love the numbers is to figure out what that data correlation actually is. You’re right that two guys who both hit 30 home runs don’t necessarily have the same value for their team. But the numbers can give you a better sense for that, and the more you have (and the better they are), the more accurate you’ll be. Guys like me love the game, and I’ve had a partial season plan for years. But if I want to know if Jayson Werth is better than Jason Bay and why, you’ve got to look at the numbers.

  121. Confresi Beach says:

    yep. you are missing me. that other guy is on point. The correlation isn’t about relating to runs so much as it should be about relating to when the runs occur and how they weigh in for his teams standing.

  122. Greenman! says:

    is the bigmyc experience a ride in Vegas?

  123. Phylan says:

    I’m confused then because he basically said the same thing I did

  124. Confresi Beach says:

    yeah, but outside of raw data on the two players, I’d like to see what each players numbers really mean. in other words, I’d like to know which player does what in which situations. i think that would tell an even more thorough story than basic accumulated numbers over a non-descript 162 game schedule.

  125. The Ghost of Connie Mack says:

    Phylan, when did you decide that you could get away with no longer listening or learning?

  126. The Bigmyc Experience says:

    Allow me to take you on a ride!!

    Get the fuck on and buckle the fuck up, bitches!

  127. Tim says:

    I see what you’re saying Confresi, but I think that the accumulated numbers tell you more just because they take so many more situations into account. When it comes down to it and there’s two runners on and two outs, it’s so hard to predict what will happen in that situation, and so far, no one’s been able to really do it. The only thing you can sometimes (though not always) predict is how a player will do over a long haul.

  128. PhillyBirdGuy says:

    If we can work a deal with Werth, great! He’s a dynamic player!
    If he walks, fuck his bitch ass. He sucked anyhow!

  129. Tim says:

    And the numbers are more reliable than most general impressions. Everyone knows that Derek Jeter is Captain Clutch and A-Rod is a choker. But over their careers, Jeter hit .305/.400/.429 with RISP and A-Rod hit .300/.401/.543. Frankly, I’d rather have the choker (obviously, hitting with RISP is not the be-all end-all of clutch situations, I’m just trying to say it’s not always as simple as it seems).

  130. bigmyc says:

    That’s because nobody can do it. I don’t think that was his point at all. I think you are still missing that the effort of looking at specific instances is much more detailed and thus informative than looking at the end tally.

    Again, it’s revisiting ‘when’ the data happens. It’s during which insances they occur. At what point in the game is Jayson’s team when he hits his extra base hits? When do his RBI happen? etc.

    I am not impressed for max value by a player who bunches up his gaudy numbers in games already decided, for example.

  131. Eric says:

    The Phils are taking a step back going into next yr! FUCK ME

  132. The Bull says:

    I was a better OF player than Werth. Fuck his Bitch AZZ!

  133. Tim says:

    So bigmyc, you’re literally saying that looking at a a player’s performance in a few situations can tell you more than by looking at his performance in a lot of situations? I don’t think you understand how statistics work. (side note: are there really players out there with big gaudy full season numbers who only rack up their RBI during blowouts?)

  134. Tim says:

    And yes, there are plenty of ways to look at how a player contributed in which situations to his team’s chances to win (the WPA and related stats are a good example of this). For what it’s worth, our boy Jayson is 23rd in baseball this year for that stat (min 500 PA).

  135. bigmyc says:

    #137

    Again.

    (deep sigh)

    No.

  136. Keegan says:

    Am I the only one in saying that I’m hugely surprised we’re in the running for Lee? Or even rumored to be? I feel like I would LOVE to have Clifton Phifer back in the red pinstripes but…four aces? Is it necessary? we need RH hitters and a bullpen, and everyone knows this. Why go after something that isn’t needed; why go after something that we HAD but let slip away?

    I don’t know. I feel like going after/getting Lee would be a mistake, because then, like Halladay last offseason, all the other needs of the team would be lost in the shuffle and we’d have the same weaknesses we had in 2010.

  137. Cliff Lee's Agent says:

    If Cliff Lee goes to Philly……he guarantees a title!

  138. bigmyc says:

    I guess the theory is; with 4 aces, you don’t need much offense. Even without JW, this offense is still pretty potent.

  139. Scott Boor-ass says:

    He’s not goin to Philly. He’s goin to the Bankees..err..the Yankees. Bank on it

  140. Greenman! says:

    don’t you guys hate pants??

  141. Chuck says:

    @129 – Ghost of Connie Mack –

    Phylan doesn’t need to “listen or learn”…

    …because he thinks he knows all the answers.

  142. Phylan says:

    yeah, but outside of raw data on the two players, I’d like to see what each players numbers really mean. in other words, I’d like to know which player does what in which situations. i think that would tell an even more thorough story than basic accumulated numbers over a non-descript 162 game schedule.

    The problem is, when you do that, you tend to break things down into very small splits that actually don’t tell you very much at all about his performance. I mean, you can find all the situational data you want about Werth in 2010 right here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=werthja01&year=2010&t=b but a lot of those splits don’t really mean anything. Individual player RISP numbers do not exhibit significant correlation year-to-year, because it’s not a repeatable skill — it’s just an unreliable split of their overall line. You could say “Well Jayson Werth hit .200/.321/.410 on Wednesdays in 2010 (that’s not a real stat, I made it up), but for that to mean something you’d need a) statistical evidence that day-by-day splits are significant for players and b) some hypothesis as to why he might suck on Wednesdays.

  143. Phylan says:

    I mean “game-winning RBI,” since it was brought up, is an even more ridiculous way to split up the data, because putting aside all the other noise that enters into it, you have no control over how many opportunities you have to get one.

  144. RallyCap says:

    Tim, quit hammering away like some tenured bitch Ivy League professor cockknocker. We’re talking about baseball here. Ain’t nobody worth 20M per who doesn’t play like Willie Mays. JWerth doesn’t play like Willie Mays. He is fortunate enough to be in a weak class of OF FAs. Some retard GM will pay him size coin and find that he is real streaky and will sometimes thrill and sometimes disappoint. He won’t lead a team to the playoffs.

    Now, can we please just enjoy the game?

  145. RallyTowel says:

    Thanks, RallyCap. Well SAID!!!

  146. RallyCap says:

    # 140 We want four aces for the same reason we want to do a pair of Swedish twins at the same time. Do we really need both at the same time? No, but what does that have to do with anything?

  147. Tim says:

    Perhaps the folks who want to know about how a player did in certain situations would be interested in the wins probability added (WPA) stats that I mentioned above. It basically is an attempt (though maybe not perfect) to keep track of every at-bat a player has and measure how the outcomes of those at-bats made their teams more or less likely to win. I definitely don’t feel like it’s the best of the new-fangled stats, but it is at least trying to measure the very things some of you are talking about.

    Seriously, Confresi and even bigmyc, you might really like this. Here’s a good primer on it that explains what it’s good for and what it’s not good for: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-WPA?urn=mlb-209597.

    And once you’ve read that go over to fangraphs.com to get all the data (it’s a very addictive site). It’s got some really cool uses and (like any other stat) it’s got some drawbacks, which you can read about on that link I posted. The folks who use the stat suggest that it’s actually not a good way to measure a player’s worth, but I think if you’re interested in how a player contributed to his team’s actual wins, that’s the stat you’re looking for.

  148. Phylan says:

    bigmyc won’t like it, because the Phils’ top 5 in WPA are

    1. Werth
    2. Ruiz
    3. Polanco
    4. Utley
    5. Ibanez

    Despite the fact that it’s specifically tooled to award players more for producing in the most important situations, that does not gel with bigmyc’s personal observations, and he will therefore reject it out of hand.

  149. Phylan says:

    Hell, I don’t even like WPA that much, but it’s geared exactly towards what bigmyc and Confresi are looking for, so I suppose it was good to bring up.

  150. Bozo says:

    I haven’t gone to deep into WPA but how’s it work for walk offs?

    Let’s say the game is tied in the bottom of the 9th and the guy batting is wearing an 0-4 with 5 LOB and he hits a solo homer to win it. Does he have a high WPA even though that’s a pretty bad game?

    It sounded better in my head so forgive me if that sounds like a stupid question.

  151. WerthBeard says:

    @ 143. The Yankees said that they arent going after Werth….

  152. Scott Boor-ass says:

    Your making it too complicated #147.
    It comes down to understanding how a player comes through in certain situations.

  153. bigmyc says:

    Well, as usual typical internet wind box in #152, you simply arbitrarily assign opinions to posters that just don’t mirror their actual sentiment. Either that or you were never an ace at reading comprehension on those SATs, eh?

    I don’t recall saying that Werth wasn’t a valuable player. I’m not sure how that got misconstrued other than the now obvious fact that you are a dolt whose need to stand on a soap box far outstrips your ability to make sense on it.

    JW is worth what he is worth. I’m the guy who called him a 4.5 tooler. I’m the guy who said he was a better player than Holliday.

    Why do I waste valuable time with you when I could be using that time to think rationally instead of trying to understand your twisted sense of logic?

  154. Scott Boor-ass says:

    Bozo, this isn’t that complicated. Just take the individual at bat. It’s very simple.

  155. Eric says:

    For all of the bullshit bigmyc makes up, let me ask him this. Will you please explain to us how each starter this past season performed in the key moments? Basically, give us a position by position run down of who was clutch enough and then I want you to back it up with key instances of performance. Let’s start there and then we can explain who is clutch enough to keep.

  156. bigmyc says:

    #159;

    please choose from the following as this will be your moniker from now on;

    A) dick twitch

    B) ass clamp

    C) pus face

    D) jizz gulp

    now, when you are finished, please take your ridiculously meaningless posts over Philly.com’s boards where you could fit in a little more.

  157. Bozo says:

    You should never wish the Philly.com message boards on someone, that’s cruel.

  158. Public Enema #2 says:

    Bigmyc’s jock is chased by Eric and the Phylan guy cause he makes them look like insecure idiots. They respond to others with calm and then lose their shits when Bigmyc makes a case. I doubt that one man could be as off base as often as they try to say that he is. Yall need to chill it.

  159. Bozo says:

    Tis lack of Phillies news and rumors needs to be fixed.

  160. Eric says:

    160 – I’ll go with pus face, whatever that is! Now let’s see where you went wrong this time!

    “I think you are still missing that the effort of looking at specific instances is much more detailed and thus informative than looking at the end tally.

    Again, it’s revisiting ‘when’ the data happens. It’s during which insances they occur. At what point in the game is Jayson’s team when he hits his extra base hits? When do his RBI happen? etc.”

    Since you are advocating this ‘clutch’ moniker, I want some specific instances. If you want to go with a theory, prove it. Prove to me who on the team is clutch and why. Until then, you’re just making shit up as you go without any indicia of proof. It’s fucking stupid.

  161. Bozo says:

    The Phillies have absolutely no chance at resigning Werth yet the Nationals have a chance to sign Cliff Lee? No, the media isn’t full of a bunch of raging morons.

  162. Bozo says:

    SBNation article^ They didn’t mention Werth but I was just referring to how pretty much all of the media in Philadelphia isn’t expecting him back.

  163. Phylan says:

    I haven’t gone to deep into WPA but how’s it work for walk offs?

    Let’s say the game is tied in the bottom of the 9th and the guy batting is wearing an 0-4 with 5 LOB and he hits a solo homer to win it. Does he have a high WPA even though that’s a pretty bad game?

    It sounded better in my head so forgive me if that sounds like a stupid question.

    Basically, yes. I’ll use the specific example of Jimmy Rollins’ walkoff back in June (HE’S BAAAAAAACK)

    Rollins was 0 for 4 when he came up to the plate for that, so not a good game, and also low at that point in the WPA department. But coming to the plate with 1 out in the bottom of the 9th, runner on second and down one run, the Phillies probability of winning that game was only 29.1%. So when Rollins hits the homerun, the Phils’ probability of winning was 100%. Rollins is credited with the difference, so 70.9%, or .709 as WPA is displayed. So even though he had a shitty game overall, that homerun was huge enough to credit him with .709 WPA, because WPA is all about situational contribution. They do the same thing with pitchers, by the way — Kerry Wood, the pitcher who gave up the home run, has .709 WPA subtracted in that case.

    Hopefully that made sense.

  164. Bobby D says:

    Somebody link the spinning “He’s Baaack” T Mac head from YouTube! I can’t find it!

  165. Pablo Sandoval says:

    San Francisco just banned happy meals :(

    you guys need a player?

  166. i don't like jokes says:

    i’m so bored.

    theres no way in hell lee is signing with the yankees…their fans spit on his wife and threw beer bottles at her during the yanks/rangers game. them cowboy types don’t rreckon they like to happen to their women.

  167. Bobby D says:

    Thank you Maria! Now I won’t be able to sleep at night.

  168. maria says:

    You brought it on yourself. That video, actually the homerun call gives me douche chills. He’s so awful.

  169. will.H says:

    170 made me chuckle.

    but really, san fran banned anything that encourages kids to eat poorly. like toys in happy meals. sup germany

  170. will.H says:

    don’t chill the douche, maria

  171. Bozo says:

    The media continues to prove why they suck. I went on MLB.com and they had a hot stove video with Werth in it and the guys like “There’s a homer to the short porch in right in Philly”, only problem is it was actually the crappy wall in that crappy stadium sponsored by that crappy phone company.

  172. ballsdeep says:

    Thanks for the education Phylan. Interesting stat.

  173. Chutley's Impressed by Mac's Speed says:

    Whoa… I must have blacked out for a couple of weeks…

    Last thing I remember I was in section 107, full count to RyHo in the bottom of the 9th & next think I know, I’m waking up under 95, and I’d written “$125 million…” over and over on the highway trussle…

    When’s the parade? How many games did it take us to beat the Rangers?

    …..?

  174. SteveO says:

    We have to sign Thames…..low cost, big upside – right handed bat for the OF.

    What do u guys think?

  175. bigmyc says:

    I’m about 99% sure that you don’t even know what we were supposed to be talking about anymore.

    Just go back to crying in the mirror and wondering what you could have done differently to keep him in your life.

  176. Anonymous says:

    I started to put together some numbers and acronyms for discussion here, but my calculator watch couldn’t handle it and my dyslexia kicked in. So, I’ll have to go with my opinion from simply watching games this year. Whatever happened to Werth after his terrific start may very well be his true identity. I am haunted by all of the times we saw him strike out to end the inning and stand there staring into the left field sky while takin off his batting gloves. How often did we see that play out? I can’t believe teams would consider that much money for 85 RBI and (I don’t think) he has never even had 100 in a season. I don’t care if he stays or goes. I would rather see Lee here, but I think that is crazy talk to think it will happen. Let Werth go, give Brown a chance to see regular starts, and don’t worry about that left-handed lineup. Overthinking is all that is.

  177. Phylan says:

    Whatever happened to Werth after his terrific start may very well be his true identity. I am haunted by all of the times we saw him strike out to end the inning and stand there staring into the left field sky while takin off his batting gloves. How often did we see that play out?

    Less often than you did in 2008 and 2009

    K rate
    2008 28.5%
    2009 27.3%
    2010 26.5%

    Sometimes when you just watch the games, you’re not seeing everything; sometimes you have to check your perception against reality. I watch the games too and I still have to do that.

  178. Wormy slugnugget says:

    You don’t need a statistical rundown on everything that happens. As long as you know that.

  179. bigmyc says:

    You can’t tell them anything. They have the numbers.

    Numbers (taps forehead/temple area suggestively). Numbers.

    NumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers Numbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers NumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbersNumbers

  180. Jon Battle says:

    Most people that watch baseball, or any sport avidly, form a realistc perception about it. Numbers are minutae. Sometimes superfluous to the actual event. They can explain and describe or they can cloak what really went down. At the end of the day, it was the experience of watching the actual game played out, not the number total.

    That’s cool if you wanna swim in BABIP or something else…I don’t need that to know that the pitcher did well or not.

  181. JT says:

    You guys can stop worrying about numbers and Jason Werth and LH hitters, our savior has arrived:

    The Nationals released right-hander Tyler Walker, according to the team.

    Phils win 110+ games next year with this stud.

  182. MR. SAID's entourage says:

    GROIN PAIN!!

  183. nick says:

    Yeah but Milt Thompson interviewed with the Astros, and if he gets that job how could we possibily succeed with all those amazing ex Phillies playing on one team

  184. MR. SAID's entourage says:

    Don’t you know, Nick?! He’s tawkin bout da Fightins!! DA FIGHTINS!! He’s stoked, BABY!!

  185. Phylan says:

    That’s cool if you wanna swim in BABIP or something else…I don’t need that to know that the pitcher did well or not.

    I quoted strikeout rate. Strikeout rate. Not an advanced stat.

  186. Tim says:

    Yeah, Jon, but if you want to know why the pitcher did well, then maybe BABIP can at least help explain it. And it’s dumb to use numbers for a single game for the most part when any fan worth his salt can tell what happened, but they’re really good for looking at a whole season. The Phillies had 6,291 plate appearances this year. Any fan can form a general impression of how those played out, but if you really want to understand it, you need the numbers. That’s why baseball statistics, including batting average, RBI, and all the way down to PECOTA, were invented.

    And it’s totally fine if you don’t want to get into advanced stats. People have been enjoying baseball for over a hundred years without them and they’ll be doing it for a hundred more. But some fans are really interested in getting deep into the game, and trying to develop as full of an understanding of it as possible to enhance our enjoyment of it. You’re welcome to choose not to dive into the advanced stats – they’re absolutely not necessary for enjoying the game of baseball. But it’s foolish of you to attack them as worthless when you haven’t taken the time to understand them. And don’t think that you have special insight because you watch a lot of games. The stat guys do too. And for what it’s worth, there’s a reason the Red Sox pay Bill James big bucks to crunch numbers for them – because understanding them will help you win. Again, I’m not attacking anyone for not taking the time to understand advanced stats. I just get annoyed when people lash out at them just because they’re not interested in them.

  187. Jon Battle says:

    I didn’t even read your post. that wasn’t in reference to what you said since I didn’t read it.

  188. Tim says:

    And I’m not saying, by the way, that you can’t understand baseball without advanced stats. But if your goal is to understand it as thoroughly as possible, why wouldn’t you want to have as much information available as possible?

  189. Greenman! says:

    How dare you use pools of statistical data to enforce an argument Phylan. NERD!

  190. Tim says:

    Fair enough, Jon. I’m just trying to point out that BABIP, and a lot of other stats, can be pretty useful in certain situations.

  191. Jon Battle says:

    Look, it’s cool if you think that. Maybe some don’t have the patience or even the capacity to deal with the particulars. Most baseball fans watch many of the games anyhow. That can help you form a pretty good working opinion about a player’s worth.

    Can we let it die already?

  192. the SAID experience says:

    New topic?! SAID! SAID!

  193. Crocks says:

    +1 – 191
    +1 – 182

    It pisses me off when people say things like “whatever stats blah blah, I actually watch the games”. Don’t all fans watch the games?!

  194. Tim says:

    Yeah, I think we can all find common ground in our mutual love for the game and collective desire to kick Joe Buck in the balls.

  195. Phylan says:

    You don’t have to care about stats, it makes no difference to me. But when you make a quantifiable claim, like Jayson Werth struck out more this season, I am damn sure going to check the stats to see if that’s actually true. You don’t have to care about that either, but that is a rather odd form of denial.

  196. Tyler says:

    Yesterday on MLB Network, they were talking about the Yankees and how they had an “off year” or some shit. Then they were like “But for a prestigious club like the Yankees, anything is possible.” They then showed Lee, Crawford, and Werth in Yankee pinstripes. Yuck.

  197. Tall Glass of Shut the Fuck Up says:

    #198, I’m sorry you got your feelings hurt.

    Perhaps if you weren’t such a cock sniffing jack wad you’d wouldn’t get so pissy.

  198. LanceParrish says:

    Surprised you asshats couldn’t stop arguing long enough to mention that we picked up a SS from Cleveland. Do you think we are going to try to move Jimmy so that we can make a run at Jeter???

  199. Rafi says:

    ^ wants to be the meat in a Gabrielle & Lynniemac sammich

  200. Said! says:

    GROIN PAIN!

  201. Crocks says:

    202 is John Battle I presume?

  202. Phylan says:

    Judging from “Tall Glass of Shut the Fuck Up” I think it’s someone from the magical land of 1998

  203. Gabrielle says:

    @204 WAIT A MINUTE……where’s that sammich? I’m starving and it’s lunchtime.

  204. Greenman! says:

    oh no it’s Lance! hide your kids!

  205. Greenman! says:

    @208 I’m just going to be a creep and say Gabrielle wins hottest fightins commenter

  206. Taller Glass of Shut the Fuck Up says:

    The classics;

    They’re simply classic.

  207. Glen Quagmire says:

    Oh yeah, Greenboner!

    You’re a real creep. Hide the women. Hide the children. Hide your grandmothers. Greenman! is steppin’ out.

    How risque of you.

  208. Fightins' Polygraph says:

    Ok, Ok, OK. Ahem. I’m gonna have to step in here…

    How many of you people have actually spent naked time with a woman?

    Remember, I’ll know when you are lying.

  209. Fightins' Polygraph says:

    Silence, eh? Well it speaks volumes.

    Just as I suspected.

  210. Greenman! says:

    no no I have a girlfriend I swear! she lives in china!

  211. SteveO says:

    Why the F would we resign Werth anyway, when we could get Crawford for the same price – younger, better and he can hit leadoff……………ya tools

  212. SAID says:

    I’m not that stoked anymore………..I realized I’m a dickhead after all

  213. Rafi says:

    Gabrielle…did you get anything to eat yet?

  214. Won Ton Soup says:

    You spelled extension wrong in the headline.

  215. Jon says:

    Has anyone discussed the possibilities of the Phillies taking a flyer on Brandon Webb? The dude was a fantastic sinkerball pitcher when he was healthy. Will he command too high a salary still, even coming off injury?

  216. Bozo says:

    This website doesn’t want me to post links. Article on CBA of how Brown needs 600 PA in 2011. I’m still anti-Francisco but if Werth isn’t back then Brown needs to play every day.

    Webb- Not sure how any player could “command” a salary after being injured for 2 years. Most players would probably be happy to have a job.

  217. Moose says:

    @220

    I was hoping they’d look into Webb, maybe even Francis. Webb’s GB tendencies would be nice to have, they it would further the believe we need to have GB pitchers in order to succeed in Phillies “bandbox”

    @Phylan

    Since you have easier access than I to advanced stats (if they’re even relevant to my next question, who knows) what are your thoughts on trading Victorino and signing Werth for center? How much of a boost do you think that’ll give the Phillies? I’ve been saying trade Victorino for years, I don’t like the guy, so I just wanted your opinion, because unlike bigmyc and other idiots on here, you actually make sense with valid arguments and evidence to back up your claims. Keep fighting the good fight my man

  218. Offseason Guy says:

    I love it. No new topics because it’s a slow babseball news day because it’s the OFFSEASON.

    All of our baseball hero’s are off with their incredibly sexy wifes, girlfriends and mistresses, spending their millions of dollars on vanity items because they can hit a ball in the gap better than we can. We are stuck in our cubicles and homes, hungry to see them again in their baseball uniforms. Some of you are sitting, pud in hand, waiting for the next hotstove development. All the while the players are living up the lifestyle they are afforded, not thinking baseball.

    The Offseason. YEAH BABY!

  219. chen says:

    @ 210. You would be absolutely correct, sir.

  220. will.H says:

    steveO, Crawford is going to want more money and more years. While i love the idea of having a real life leadoff hitter on the team.. Crawford will probably get more money/years than Lee.

  221. will.H says:

    Lance Parish, why would be sign a short stop from cleveland just to get rid of rollins just to sign another shorstop. Jeter is going to make a lot of money.. probably the highest paid 36 year old in the majors.

  222. Crocks says:

    216 – Crawford would be an amazing addition if he batted from the right side.

    220 – Why would the Phillies, of all teams, be interested in signing another starting pitcher? not that Brandon Webb can’t be a great pitcher again, other teams will take a chance on him before the Phils do

  223. Eric says:

    222 – Phylan has advocated moving Werth to CF. Of all of the options, that seems like it would be the easiest move to make. Ibanez-Werth-Brown next year and then a question mark signing next off-season. I think Victorino only his this and next year left anyway, so it wouldn’t set you back too far in having to find a new LF anyway. If we’re able to sign Werth and trade Victorino, it’s clearly the route to take. (And before you remind me you want to trade Ibanez, keep in mind that’s never, ever going to happen this season)

  224. Offseason Guy says:

    Any truth to the rumor that the Phillies are trying to acquire Carlos Silva and Marlon Byrde from the Cubs for Joe Blanton and Ben Francisco? Read it at yahoo.

  225. RallyCap says:

    Here’s two advanced stats I like:

    1. JWerth strikes out more than 25% of the time. That explains why it seems like we see him stare into the LF sky at least once every fucking night. The numbers don’t lie.

    2. When Tim the cockknocker lays one of his two-paragraph walls of words out there (like #191), I read it 0% of the time.

  226. LanceParrish says:

    @226…will.H, I wasn’t being serious.

  227. Greenman! says:

    @229 that sounds like nonsense, I havent heard it. I have heard the Cubs are interested in Werth. I could see that happening since he is from Springfield, IL.

  228. Hide Yo Keeds, Hide Yo Wife says:

    And hide yo husbands, cause they rapin them too

  229. Jon Battle says:

    #230, I don’t have any idea of who you are and where you came from..but I like your style, son.

    I think that this Tim, Phylan and Jon are all the same bung licker. They seem to share the same fetid ignorance level that only a number fucker misfit could exhibit.

  230. Jon says:

    Crocks, some people believe the Phillies will make a run at Cliff Lee. Now, let’s say they do, and fall short, which I certainly expect them to. They then might say, “well, we didn’t get Cliff Lee, but let’s see if we can get Brandon Webb as a cheap alternative, provided he is finally healthy again.” It certainly seems plausible to me.

  231. bigmyc says:

    #222, Moose, did I make you cry earlier? I’m sorry for that…no wait, acually I’m not at all.

    Just because you don’t have the mental acuity to effectively follow what I write doesn’t mean I can’t back anything up…the reality is that my approach is just the opposite in that I back everything up. Perception plays into this of course, and if someone doesn’t have the capacity to understand then there’s not much I can help them with, particularly in your case.

    So, just do the best you can, buddy. I understand you are “challenged.”
    Your next original thought will be your first.

  232. Quagmire the Undead says:

    Dayyyyam!

    +1 #236

    Double giggity.

  233. Charles Winchester III says:

    bigmyc, I find your verbal spew rather droll and and annoying. You are filthy rag-about and you will never comprehend baseball on the same level that I do. While your time here as been quite charming, I assure you, please head over the nearest bridge to New Jersey and never return.

  234. I was hoping the Phillies would win the NL so I could come back to Philly and kick the crap out of that whistling asshole.

    If Rueben brings me back, I swear to God I will.

  235. Crocks says:

    bigmyc – your vocabulary seems like it expands the angrier you get. Weird.

    235 – Who believes the Phils will go after Cliff Lee? I mean fans might be stirring up rumors but is there anybody respectable out there reporting that?

  236. RallyCap says:

    Jon B – thanks for the love @ 234.

    You might be right about the three cockknockers being only a single cockknocker. All I can be sure of is that his house smells really bad. Ya know that smell? I hate that.

    I feel like watching Jimmy and Chase turn two. Don’t ya love watching them do that? It never gets old.

  237. PhanSinceWhoCaresWhen says:

    To put a finer point on #241, I prefer the 4-6-3 variety. Jimmy making the throw is more like what I think ballet must be like. 6-4-3 is good, too, because Chase kinda stands there and dares the runner to take him out. Still, I’m a 4-6-3 guy. Does that make me a fag?

  238. Moose says:

    @228

    I’m not gonna tell you i wanna trade ibanez cause im well aware that won’t happen. thats why we should trade victorino.

    @236

    no you didnt make me cry at all, youre just a faggot that doesnt comprehend the finer points of baseball. why dont u get off ur high horse and start making intelligent arguments with proof and evidence to support them other than just asserting your views/opinions as fact. often times what you say is retarded and not how any successful baseball team should be run

  239. Moose says:

    And others have pointed to the fact that your posts say next to nothing, even with all the words you type. So clearly I’m not the challenged, far from it actually dude. Just like the trolls on here, youre a sperm that your daddy shoulda let go in his sock under the bed.

  240. Phylan says:

    Since you have easier access than I to advanced stats (if they’re even relevant to my next question, who knows) what are your thoughts on trading Victorino and signing Werth for center? How much of a boost do you think that’ll give the Phillies? I’ve been saying trade Victorino for years, I don’t like the guy, so I just wanted your opinion, because unlike bigmyc and other idiots on here, you actually make sense with valid arguments and evidence to back up your claims. Keep fighting the good fight my man

    Thanks! I don’t have easier access, I mostly rely on http://www.fangraphs.com and http://www.baseballprospectus.com. The stats sections of both are free.

    Anyhow, yes, I would do that in a second. Werth isn’t an elite centerfielder or anything, but by all indications he can play league average defense there (part of the reason why I think he’s underrated in this FA market. Crawford can’t really play CF). Victorino had a down year, but he was still above league average offensively, and is signed to a reasonable contract, so he definitely has some trade value. It would make a ton of sense to do that, start Brown everyday in right, and platoon Ibanez with either Mayberry, Francisco, or a free agent pickup of some kind, like Thames, if he can be had on a one year deal. That’s a hell of an offense combined with the infield, and considering the staff they’re supporting. Complicating stuff would be that Vic is a fan favorite (I don’t think Rube lets that stuff get in the way though) and that management might not be as confident in Werth’s CF defense.

  241. bigmyc says:

    #240, How sad is it that you equate more developed vocablulary with anger?
    Must have happened to you early on. Just imagine me having measured tones whilst you read through my posts. It won’t be as scary to you.

  242. Phylan says:

    Since you have easier access than I to advanced stats (if they’re even relevant to my next question, who knows) what are your thoughts on trading Victorino and signing Werth for center? How much of a boost do you think that’ll give the Phillies? I’ve been saying trade Victorino for years, I don’t like the guy, so I just wanted your opinion, because unlike bigmyc and other idiots on here, you actually make sense with valid arguments and evidence to back up your claims. Keep fighting the good fight my man

    Thanks! I don’t have easier access, I mostly rely on Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus, and Baseball Reference (jesus Baseball Reference is awesome) The stats sections of both are free.

    Anyhow, yes, I would do that in a second. Werth isn’t an elite centerfielder or anything, but by all indications he can play league average defense there (part of the reason why I think he’s underrated in this FA market. Crawford can’t really play CF). Victorino had a down year, but he was still above league average offensively, and is signed to a reasonable contract, so he definitely has some trade value. It would make a ton of sense to do that, start Brown everyday in right, and platoon Ibanez with either Mayberry, Francisco, or a free agent pickup of some kind, like Thames, if he can be had on a one year deal. That’s a hell of an offense combined with the infield, and considering the staff they’re supporting. Complicating stuff would be that Vic is a fan favorite (I don’t think Rube lets that stuff get in the way though) and that management might not be as confident in Werth’s CF defense.

  243. bigmyc says:

    Nice work, Mooseknuckle with your stand out post #243..

    Thank you for verifying my deduction about you so aptly.

    You couldn’t sound more like Sloth-like if were actually kicked by a horse whilst in the womb, kept in a dungeon shackled by irons and hit in your deformed face by a Baby Ruth.

  244. Ghandi says:

    Hey, Moose, why are you attacking people with insults and also berating their intelligence at the same time? Your language won’t impress anyone and it surely doesn’t make you sound intelligent.
    You should try to be bigger than that. You can do it if you really try.

  245. bigmyc says:

    I think balls and strikes should have replays too.

  246. bigmyc says:

    Basically, moose hole, you sound like an emotionally stunted loser…but hey, that’s just what you sound like. You could actually be a nice guy…an emotionally stunted one, of course…but a nice guy.

    The next time you begin to cry during another one of your jack off sessions remember; I’m sure your mother had very good reasons for what she did to you. As for your father..well, who could blame such a drunk for his actions, right?

  247. bigmyc says:

    #248 I did not say that…although, not a bad idea. Of course, if you do it for one at bat, you’d have to do it for all of them.

    I’m in.

  248. The Killer Zs says:

    Jesus, how many days again until pitchers and cathcers report. This is awful.

  249. Satan says:

    #252, Imagine what the Killer Zs kill and then imagine yourself being that thing…

    OK, now do to that thing what the Killer Zs would do.

  250. Crocks says:

    Awful indeed… and there aren’t even trolls involved

  251. bigmyc says:

    You’re correct #254…just a bunch of chest thumping wannabe GMs who have the audacity to think that their way of looking at baseball is any better than the guy with another view point. Whether or not he can back it up doesn’t matter. I have exhibited plenty of comprehension but if the hard headed morons can’t or won’t understand what i’m saying, it gets ugly.

    You could possibly say the same of me, but I feel a strange witchhunt thing going on thing vs. myself. I find it entertaining and very affirming since those wing nuts who attack me clearly show me how little they comprehend the issues being “discussed,” and their defensiveness betrays their latent insecurity. Truthfully. I am never the one to insult anyone first…..did you ever notice that? Probably not, but I don’t have a very high opinion of most posters’ sense of fair play anyhow.

    That, to me alone, is evidence of low character and twisted understanding abilities.

    Just in case any one could have wondered.

  252. Crocks says:

    No no I like the baseball talk. It’s the ugly part.

  253. Crocks says:

    In fact, since it’s been ugly for so long, I don’t even remember your original talking points

  254. Moose says:

    @255

    You may not insult first, but you might as well. From the way you say (type) things, you have a very condescending tone. You come off as though you believe youre superior to everyone and no matter what they say will always be below you and wrong in your eyes. You might not be trying to come across this way, but that’s how it looks/sounds. As for your insults towards me, meh. Didn’t bother me. Canned insults is all they were, nothing to lose sleep over.

  255. Tim says:

    @230 Sorry about all those paragraphs. Reading is hard.

    @234 So the fact that we seek out more information than you do when we look at baseball makes us ignorant? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word?

  256. jared says:

    “I have exhibited plenty of comprehension” – what kind of asshole talks like this

    Hey big bad ass myc, it’s a witch hunt motherfucker! EVERYONES OUT TO GET YOU ha ha ha

  257. Sir Bedevere says:

    There are ways of telling whether he is a saber nerd witch.
    bigmyc: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
    Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with saber nerd witches?
    bigmyc: Burn them.
    Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from saber nerd witches?
    bigmyc: More saber nerd witches.
    Crocks: Wood.
    Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do saber nerd witches burn?
    Jon Battle: …because they’re made of… wood?
    Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether he is made of wood?
    bigmyc: Build a bridge out of him.
    Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
    bigmyc: Oh yeah.
    Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
    bigmyc: No, no, it floats!… It floats! Throw him into the pond!
    Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
    bigmyc: Bread.
    Crocks: Apples.
    Jon Battle: Very small rocks.
    bigmyc: Cider.
    Crocks: Gravy.
    Jon Battle: Cherries.
    bigmyc: Mud.
    Crocks: Churches.
    Jon Battle: Lead! Lead!
    King Arthur Meechone: A Duck.
    Sir Bedevere: …Exactly. So, logically…
    bigmyc: If he weighed the same as a duck… he’s made of wood.
    Sir Bedevere: And therefore…
    Crocks: …A saber nerd witch!

  258. Bozo says:

    Is Free Agency officially tomorrow or Sunday? I thought tomorrow but David Murphy’s blog said Sunday.

  259. Greg says:

    I believe Sunday at 12:01.

  260. Greg says:

    Apparently Domonic Brown pronounces his name “Dominique”. At least, according to Todd Zolecki: http://zozone.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/11/jayson_werth_hits_the_open.html

  261. Greenman! says:

    bigmyc is a retarded sloth and when he isn’t busy trolling us as Mets fan (meech called him out, I can grab the link for you) he trolls us as a “senior commenter” as if that gives him any kind of credibility. I have never seen him refute anything. He just likes using his phony elite speak to try and fight any statistical argument brought up by Phylan, Eric etc…

    But bottom line is I’m a fan of good threads and they usually involve arguments so bigmyc gets my props in that regards. I know how important props are to the senior commenters.

  262. bigmyc says:

    Meech was wrong and he apologized for it.

    And I have put my time and should be recognized, if only for the sheer breadth of my work.
    It’s obvious that people just like to jump into the mud pool and I suppose there’s something in my style that evokes that reaction. Don’t think for a minute that disparaging words towards me (or any other antogonist) will qualify a poster as vetted. I’ve seen posters do this and it only creates disdain, not appreciation. The more observant of us know who the sheep are.

    Yes, a writer once remarked, “a mob is a beast,” and for the many reasons that you could imagine, this is so true. It’s also important to note; the ends don’t always justify the means. What you see as hollow drivel is another man’s insightful outlook.

    To the poster who remarked that he honestly didn’t know what the original talking points were, I actually commend him. At least he had the integrity to admit what I charged much earlier. I recall this poster, eric, for months was the Public Enemy #1..and rightly so I thought as his posts were drenched in contempt and knee jerk emotional content. This was a guy who went picking arguments. If you had any reading comprehension skills, you see that my style is completely different. If anything, posters repeatedly accept my bait. That makes anyone fair game. That’s how that’s played.

    “I can make you feel, but I can’t make you think.” – Ian Anderson

  263. Franchise says:

    Who cares

  264. bigmyc says:

    That’s funny. Evidently 180 posts do since that’s when this entire string began.
    Unless you are saying that, “Who” actually cares…’cause like…you should use a “?” to punctuate a question..basic stuff really.

  265. Eric says:

    Bigmyc you commend anyone who “doesn’t know what the original talking points were” because that’s your platform. You accuse every single person of going off topic, when we are all, always very much on topic. This thread was about Werth turning down an extension, then we talked about why he should be extended, how to value his extension, and the competing theories about how to value players. None of that is off topic. It’s called discussing various points all related to the same topic. Sorry if the exact pigeon-holed topic you so badly want to discuss got shifted just ever so slightly. When that happens, you dismiss anything else said as being irrelevant and stupid. Nobody thinks it’s a clever way to debate.. everyone just thinks you’re an idiot.

    Then you go into a paragraph explaining that there’s a difference between my calling out specific terrible comments and your laying general asinine comments out in public, to try to antagonize the public at large. Yes, surely I’m the bad guy. The difference between us is that I do it to try to get people to rationally think and validate their arguments. Your sole purpose is to spin everything said to create animosity to get your jollies. You then claim to have won every argument and you go flex in the mirror for yourself. Some of us here like to have baseball discussions to get to the bottom of an issue. You just create discussions meant to end in hatred. Basically, you’re a huge loser and I still seriously doubt that you’re even a Phillies fan.

  266. bigmyc says:

    No.

    Btw, it wasn’t you who was big enough to admit that. It might not have been clear in that paragraph. It was you who that I mentioned would go out of their way to create friction. I merely entertain the whims and, in some cases, misconceptions of posters who feel the gumption enter into public discourse. And what’s the point of all this vitriol? Do you even know? Do you not understand that hate is closer to love than apathy? You probably think those are “hollow words” as well. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Just like much of today’s generation and it’s warped popular culture, things that are percieved as smart, sadly need to be villified at times. The mob mentality is so classicly portrayed in, “Idiocracy,” the movie by Mike Judge…go watch it. You might recognize many of the character archetypes..which is not good news for someone like you.

    I have not excused every single person of going off topic, just those who are too obtuse to understand what is at the heart of the debate..if you could even call it that. Can you honestly tell me what the original matter was? If I were you and I couldn’t answer that question, I’d be pretty embarrassed by that.

  267. Eric says:

    Weird, you spent an entire post just to accuse someone of not knowing the topic. How novel of you. You’re truly an idiot.

  268. Bozo says:

    NEW ARGUMENT TIME. IN ONE CORNER, ERIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC ANDDDDDDDDDD PHYLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN. IN THE OTHER BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGMYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYC.

    Domonic Brown’s defense- Looks different cause he throws LH or is “shakey”

    -

    It’s something I’ve been reading for a while now but is anyone THAT much more comfortable with Ben Francisco playing defense? From what I remember Brown had the one play against Arizona where he slid for a ball and some bad judgement on throws(in Florida but Jimmy told him about it). Other than that I can’t recall any plays that make me worry about his defense.

  269. Arena says:

    97.5 should have Eric and bigmyc go at it on the air. i love reading these debates. eric, you still da man. bozo you da man too. you guys are always on point. bigmyc, we often disagree but you definitely entertain.

    i like bozos comment in 272 talking about doms and bens D. that one play with dom does stick out in my head, and the throw that jimmy talked with dom about does as well. so glad that someone else remembers shit like that. not that has anything to do with this thread, im just saying.

    umm personally im not with the whole ben time share idea. he aint that good.. in 179 AB’s he had 14 BB’s and 35 SO’s batting .268. but for a little under half a mil thats not too bad. im not hatin on ben, im just not for him seeing anymore playing time for him. although he is only 28..

    not sure if it was eric bozo or bigmyc or someone else talking about our lefties hitting lefties, lets not for get raul didnt do too bad against the lefties either batting .268 this year. a stat that probably balloons after the all-star break. (against my own argument, he batted .238 against LH starters.. kinda scares me)

    anyways, if jayson aint gonna take the 16 let him walk. even though i dont think well ever get cliffy back. someone said on another thread about a week ago maybe about how they dont wanna see jayson sign for six years, play well for two, than get crucified his last four years. i dont want him longer than three years, four at the most.

    this is just my opinion…

  270. Crocks says:

    “I merely entertain the whims and, in some cases, misconceptions of posters who feel the gumption enter into public discourse. And what’s the point of all this vitriol? Do you even know? Do you not understand that hate is closer to love than apathy?”

    Your trying too hard! It sounds like a below average student with a hard on for his philosophy professor at Delaware County Community College.

  271. Crocks says:

    Well, time to get the Thesaurus out so you can write another post with hardly any actual content!

  272. bigmyc says:

    Apparently, and not surprisingly, your ugliness knows no bounds. You are a seething pus pot of ignorance, boorishness and petulance. Not too attractive.

    But, as do all mental and emotional defectives, you only know to fall back upon your crude nature when confronted with a ethereal challenge. You are an animal.

  273. bigmyc says:

    #271 Apparently, and not surprisingly, your ugliness knows no bounds. You are a seething pus pot of ignorance, boorishness and petulance. Not too attractive.

    But, as do all mental and emotional defectives, you only know to fall back upon your crude nature when confronted with a ethereal challenge. You are an animal. I’d hate to have to watch you eat.

    You almost exhibited understanding of the original discussion but your recap conveniently stopped at the aproximate point that things went sideways. After that, you and your kind just got consumed with insults, the obvious mark of an unevolved mind.

    Just admit that you enjoy this exchange..how could you not and expect people to take you seriously? So, once you do that, all your nastiness and your emotional flareups make you look like the basic jack ass that you are. If you don’t admit to it, well then you are just simply insane.

    You are an addict. Get help.

  274. bigmyc says:

    #274 talk about tryng too hard. That line you quoted me as saying was laid out immediately after typing the sentence prior. I’d say that your strained and tired come back is the stuff of trying too hard. Below average student at DCCC? Really?…you actually typed that? Not just any CC…Delaware County CC. Now that’s a regular comedic circus of laughs.

    You’re that guy that tries to be funny at parties…no wait, you don’t have the balls to try such a ridiculously difficult stunt at a party..the guy that tries to be funny at family gatherings and only gets the grand parents to laugh, aren’t you?

  275. Arena says:

    im gonna choose sides… eric youre still da man. and although i always read what you have to say bigmyc, i laughed out loud when i read 275. you use alot of words bigmyc, and sometimes im impressed with some of the words you use. (im no scholar by any means, just a landscaper who works for his dollar) so be honest, how old are you? did you take english(?) classes in college or something? or do you actually use a thesaurus?

    im not trying to antagonize you or anything like that bigmyc, honestly. in all seriousness, i really wanna know where youre colorful use of the english language comes from.

    btw, youre large vocabulary is one of the reasons id like to hear you guys duke it out on the radio. so that way mike missanaelli could regulate what you guys talk about.., make sure the fight stays in the ring if you know what i mean

    so seriously, where does your vocabulary come from? school? or just many years of being alive? im very curious

  276. Crocks says:

    I was funny at a party one time. Hey did you guys hear that Jason Werth turned down a midseason extension? I wonder what everyone thinks about that (plus related issues)…

  277. Arena says:

    re-read what i said and i still feel like that it could be taken the wrong way. seriously not trying to be a dick here at all

  278. bigmyc says:

    Do you thnk it’s possible, even remotely that I am correct about any of this?

    Any of it at all…

    Just curious what anyone might have to say on that.

  279. The delicate sound of crickets says:

    regarding #280.

  280. Peter Griffin says:

    I find the core commenters shallow and pedantic. Yes, shallow and pedantic.

  281. bigmyc says:

    Griffin, someone already used that line.

    Meh heh heh heh

  282. Greg says:

    Why do I get the impression that bigmyc is just like that faggot from TalkingChop, Undocorkscrew? They both seem to try too hard. It’s a fucking baseball blog, not the fucking Academic Decathlon. Either talk about fucking baseball or get the fuck off.

  283. bigmyc says:

    Well, Arena… where to begin?

    I am glad that you can appreciate the quality of my diction and the breadth of my vocabulary. Odd thing is; some seem to lambaste me for such attempts at civility, perhaps because they either don’t like my message or else, can’t understand it. In either case, it doesn’t say a whole lot for those who don’t approve and take such disagreeable measures to express it. Now, I can accept the notion that there are much less educated individuals amongst us, but that does not and should not provide free pass when one such individual is compelled to beat their chest and cast an accusatorial shadow over one who has taken strides to completely and accurately portray their case…these are those exact maligned social mechanics at work here. Now, tell me, Arena, is this something that you or anyone else should be proud of? Does this last paragraph sound like something from the mind of an uneducated (formally or otherwise) lout? How is it that a perfectly uncorrupted thought line could be so bastardized by the detailed and thoughtful prose that was designed to clearly express it?

    Think about that and tell me honestly whether or not someone like that could possibly be, “the man.”

  284. Octagon Smackdown says:

    You get that impression, Greg because you are a typical slob whose idea of culture is limited to the weeks old schmeg that you got growing in your taint.

    Nobody cares how your urban white trash mother would talk so please keep your paraphrasing of her out of the discussion.

  285. bigmyc says:

    Octagon Smackdown, I couldn’t have put that better myself. You have been reading up, eh?

  286. Taggart says:

    God darnit, Mr. bigmyc, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.

  287. Bastardo's Changeup says:

    bigmyc, someone calls you an ‘idiot’ (a fairly common and low-key insult) and you respond by referring to him as “a seething pus pot of ignorance, boorishness and petulance” “a mental and emotional defective” and “an animal.” Wait, who exactly is “consumed with insults again” and “insane?”

  288. The English Language says:

    Please, someone just put me out of my misery. Bigmyc’s misuse of his brand-new dictionary is just too much to bear. Kill me now.

  289. The Ghost of William Shakespeare says:

    Don’t listen to that B$%^ above. You’re my boy, bigmyc!

  290. RallyCap says:

    Way too many paragraphs, boys.

    Dammit, it’s only November. How long until I stop getting on here hoping to fill the void left by that goddamnmotherfucking called third strike?

  291. Arena says:

    bigmyc, nice words. but from “tell me arena” you start going crazy on me. what the hell would i be proud of? jayson not resigning? or writing something like that? shouldnt you be proud of that? and hypothetically speaking, if i were to write something along those lines, i might be proud of it if it actually had something to do with what was goin on. your words dont make you sound uneducated, it makes you sound like youre trying just a bit too hard. i wasnt trying to stroke your ego in 279, i was asking you a serious question!!

    an uncorrupted thought line, regardless of what it says has the chance to be rebutted here, or anywhere else on the internet for that matter. we dont disagree bc of your big words, we disagree on baseball. thats it. not even baseball, just phillies baseball. i like the effort, i really do, but the only way you could ever be “da man” is if you lost the negative nancy point of view that you always have and than started going on one of your tirades!

    btw, i cant wait to see the day you and eric agree about something. this blog site might implode lol

  292. bigmyc says:

    #291 What difference does it make regarding how creative or descriptive my insults get? If I’m not the one initiating them, why are you calling me out? I am admittedly guilty of overkill when I respond to even general insults, but mostly, this is for effect. Let’s not excuse the man who threw the first stone when, in retribution, a man returns a boulder in kind.

    That is Gerber common sense there.

    Shoulda went with the curve ball, Tony.

  293. bigmyc says:

    #292, English Language, get over yourself.

    You know I make you look good…my bitch.

  294. bigmyc says:

    #293, Back at ya, Bill.

    Peace, Brozinski.

  295. Ryan Mmm Mmm Howard says:

    #294, (chomp, chew, chew, chew)

    …ah whut? I’m sorry, Rallycap, I didn’t hear your question over my delicious Subway Club.

  296. bigmyc says:

    Arena, in all seriousness, I’m not trying to be the man. Really.
    But I’ll tell you what, I have a problem when some basic shithead gets credit from anyone for being that guy.

    I know you were asking a serious question…and I answered equally seriously..in my style, of course. I think you misread my content (something that everybody seems to strangely do).

    I was basically asking what kind of person would be proud of an eric or phylan or some other tweeker dipshit type response? Why insult someone because you disagree? Especially, when it’s the first time that you’ve addressed that person? It doesn’t make sense. What does make sense is calling that individual for the rude fuck wad that he apparently is…

    I am aware of my considerable command of the English Language. I don’t need any back patting over it. I just expect people to wade through the prose and get a clear grasp on the message…it’s sort of…my little game, I suppose. To those who suggest it all means nothing, I say, “hardly.” Everything I have written has had something to do with, “what was going on.” Trust me. Would a guy with my grasp of language skills have problems keeping up with a conversation?

    You see, Arena, I’m speaking straight to you because you have represented yourself as a straight forward guy. Many times, when a person utters something disparaging about another, it will speak volumes more about the guy doing the insulting than the guy getting insulted. Not always, of course, but in any event, you just have to listen understand where everyone is coming from. Is a debate about baseball worth insulting someone out of nowhere? I don’t think so.

  297. will.H says:

    phillies, flyers and eagles are undefeated this november

  298. will.H says:

    we all know he’ll be a pitching coach one day, maybe even a manager. The question is when.

  299. Bozo says:

    Definitely a possibility. Sucks to hear that he got injured though. Any idea where to look for Winter Ball stats? MLB.com had some but didn’t have Brown. I’m not sure who else might be in Winter Ball that wasn’t listed on MLB.com, maybe Herndon and Bastardo.

  300. Arena says:

    bigmyc, i dont think so either although i have gotten a little too excited on this page before. but as far as baseball goes, you know where i stand. i guess ill throw a thanks in there for addressing me in a straight forward manor bc as youve noticed i am a straight forward guy. its evident that you can represent your thoughts well, so lets get back to baseball

    @bozo, i agree. definitely sucks to hear that. no idea where to find winter ball stats…

    will.h, 303, i hope he comes back to the phils as a pitching coach!! any kind of coach at that.. shit make up a new job to make room for JMo lols

  301. Dubee Dubee Du says:

    Finally some civility returns to my Fightins. When the parents fight the children suffer.

    RE: Moyer: It’s a shame that Jaime puts in so many years and doesn’t get to go out on his own terms.
    But then all of us here would give an eye tooth to have the talent to get to the bigs for even one day.
    Hell I’d have given all my teeth and spent a month+.

    RE: Werth: If RAJ sets his clock back early will MLB let him have the extra hour to negotiate solo?

    How about the ticket price increase announced yesterday?
    I believe it was $2-$5.
    If they resign Werth and sign Lee will they raise them by $10?

  302. Bozo says:

    Not really a surprise on the ticket prices raised, it’s not going to stop CBP from selling out. Chances are half the people that go to a game probably spend more on beverages, food, and merchandise than an actual ticket.

  303. Bozo says:

    CSNPhilly.com commenters say trade Rizotti and Francisco to the Brewers for Ryan Braun and still think Singleton is a 1st basemen.

  304. OK, I think I figured it out….

    bigmyc is fuckin’ Eskin!!!

  305. Phylan says:

    Rizotti and Francisco for Braun is too dumb a trade even for Doug Melvin, by a lot

  306. Shamels Raul Wertiz says:

    Jamie Moyer outskies? Boo freaking hoo. He’s been mediocre from the start…I could see him as a coach or something but as a player he’s been crap long before he got hurt. And pride of Souderton my ass! The dude hardly ever shows his face round here, and when he does he is a total assclown who refuses to just be cool with fans. Don’t worry Jamie, Im ashamed of you too. Bounce!

    /Fin.

  307. Watrick says:

    What I think is funny is that people say bigmyc doesn’t say anything in his posts, yet if you can actually read them, he says plenty. Don’t be so lazy people. Maybe this is what he’s been trying to tell you.

  308. Eric says:

    Watrick, the only thing he tells us is that none of us know the point of the conversation. I’d suggest he better inform us to the narrow topic he would like to discuss, but he would only accuse us of being too stupid to figure it out.

    His problem is that he refuses to consider divergent points of view. When we explain the flaws in his rationale, he accused us of over using statistics and basic logic. He could simply acknowledge the issues and say that he doesn’t really care to take actual information into consideration. Instead, he attacks everybody for what he perceives to be attacks on him. It’s the type of argumentative style that I used to try in 5th grade before I realized it only made me sound uninformed and childish.

    But yea, he is likely some guy from Talkin’ Chop or just a Mets fan. No Phillies fan would care that much to try to demean every single other fan because they care some about statistics. I’m just happy I enjoy sports enough that I don’t have troll Braves blogs to get my jollies.

  309. bigmyc says:

    Well, well. It takes another poster for you to be so kind as to explain your position and how you see it as it relates to mine. Great…because now it’s in black and white and evident, at least to me, that your opinion of my “flawed rationale” is indeed flawed itself.

    I have gotten long tired of explaining where your approach is faulty so I have just played along for the last 200 posts or so for entertainment value. At least you are aware that I my attacks are actually counter attacks. At least you have come to grips with that. But that in itself raises another issue with you inability to be fair minded; you say nothing of your own attacks. Sorry for another “fake ass folksy” cliche, but it applies perfectly to you; “Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.”

    If you really cared to take the high road, you wouldn’t have engaged my little game in the first place…or just dropped it after a few posts. As it sits, you have consistently come back for another heaping helping like the hypocrite that you are.

    btw, you still don’t what the original argument was. What you just stated was incorrect.

  310. bigmyc says:

    What we really need is to get Matt Stairs back, his clutch value was so much hire then any other guy we have.

  311. Eric says:

    Relax, undocorkscrew, I will stop playing your game. But then who will play with you?

  312. maria says:

    I want to take this thread and beat it to death with a bat.

  313. A Dead Horse says:

    Ow!! Ow!! Stop it! Ouch!! Ahhh!!!

  314. Mike Vick says:

    man that big mike sounds like a pussy, he probably all up in his momma’s ass. Mike Vick 2010 ya’ll.

  315. Brandon says:

    @Greenman, the only thing that post does for me is make me miss DM1H…

  316. bigmyc says:

    Just having fun.

    Lighten up, kids.

    Greenman! dear idiot, If I was a troll, why waste your valuable time on me? Oh wait…valuable time? My bad, I think I answered my own question.

  317. bigmyc says:

    #316

    The real bigmyc would never have used, “hire” when he meant, “higher.”

    Fail sauce.

  318. Truth be told.. says:

    325 posts and counting…

    No one dominates like bigmyc.

    Run and tell dat.

  319. Greenman! says:

    oh esteemed legendary commenter of the fightins, I know it tis beneath someone of though stature to be wrong about anything whether it be statistics or trolling. Oh wait, we’ve called you out asshole. Get the fuck off this bored, no one likes you.

  320. Greenman! says:

    and yes I purposely spelled it bored, because thats exactly what your antics are… BORING

  321. bigmyc says:

    dude don’t tell anyone! it’s how I get my kicks!

  322. bigmyc says:

    dude, don’t tell anyone…it’s how I get my ki…ahh…weak sauce.

    Greenman! You are perhaps the least insighful of any of the nerds that post here. Your contribution amounts to that ugly cheerleader on the squad that no one wants to bang but is tolerated because of her spirit.

    And you did type, “bored” by accident because you are a reject with a flimsy excuse for why you fucked up.

    Have a nice day. Keep waving those pom poms.

  323. Naomi; Shenanigans Waitress says:

    ..fucking cheerleaders…

    I HATE ‘EM!

  324. 2nd schtreet phan in SD says:

    “your voice needs to come off as elegant as your clothing.” flourish pinky. YYYYYYYEEEEEEEESSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b1-TE7hhKw

  325. blah blah blah says:

    LOLmets

    SAID!

  326. Philly Phrenetic says:

    Keep it alive!

  327. Bobby Payne says:

    let’s sign Magglio. He could have a big year.

  328. bigmyc says:

    Ordonez or Gylenhall?

    Yuk, yuk, yuk.

  329. Sophie says:

    This sad news saddens me.

    I like Werth and was just about to forgive his little F-bomb on that one fan who unintentionally fouled that play. And look, we still didnt make it to the Worlds. I suddenly realize that I dont like Ruben Amaro Jr. :(

  330. Bozo says:

    What are you guys talking about? If it’s not on MLBTraderumors it’s probably bullshit.

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