On the same day that the Ruben Amaro took another step toward cementing his legacy, along with the Phillies’ immediate future, it seemed like the topic of the day was Cliff Lee, the erstwhile lefty who is long gone, but far from forgotten, in the City of Brotherly Love.
Most of the chatter takes Amaro to task for not keeping Cliff Lee on the payroll for 2010, especially in light of Joe Blanton’s recent contract extension. The prevailing logic is that if Blanton can get eight per for the next three, then why couldn’t that money go to Lee’s sure-to-be-monster contract?
More after the jump…
While that sounds like an easy solution, it is anything but. 1) There is the issue of moving (or non-tendering) Joe Blanton, 2) Signing Cliff Lee to an extension before he hits the open market, 3) Dealing with a decimated farm system that has all but drained itself of its top prospects, 4) A ballooning payroll that significantly limits the team’s ability to address other issues, most notably, Shane Victorino’s contract, Jayson Werth’s future with the team, and the bullpen.
And so it goes. If Lee stays, it causes a ripple effect that could end up hurting the team in the long run. Yes, that is crazy to say, but it’s no less true. So it was far from an easy decision for Ruben and Co to make.
Despite the three straight division titles, two N.L. Pennants, and a World Series trophy, the Phillies are still a team that is not without budgetary constraints. With a roster of talent that is getting more and more expensive with each passing year, the front office is going to be forced to make some big decisions concerning the future of the organization. For Ruben Amaro, his biggest test came in December. Does he trade for Roy Halladay, his White Whale, or does he keep Cliff Lee, the deadline acquisition that, almost effortlessly, led the Phillies back to the World Series?
Clearly, this was not an easy choice. After all, Lee is a bargain at $9 mil in 2010, a price tag that is almost guaranteed to double when he hits free agency. But on the other hand…it’s Roy freakin’ Halladay, arguably the best pitcher of the last five years. A horse that will pitch nine innings on Monday, and then nine more on Tuesday. A Cy Young winner. An Ace. A stud. All this, while pitching in the best division in baseball.
And unlike the bigger markets to the north and way out west, the Phils couldn’t go all in and keep Lee on the payroll past 2010. At least not realistically. Had Lee been willing to take a considerable cut in pay, then it was possible that he is in red pinstripes in 2010. But things being the way way are, and with a farm system that was in need of some replenishing, Amaro did the most* logical thing: trade Cliff Lee for prospects, free up payroll, ink Joe Blanton and Shane Victorino to three year deals, and still head into 2010 with the best team in the National League.
*Or least.
So instead of trading for Halladay and keeping Lee to form some kind of Voltron-esque super rotation that consists of Ace (yes, Ace) Cole Hamels, with Blanton and Jay Happ rounding out things, we are only left with the fleeting question of “What if?”
What IF Ruben could have convinced those that hold the purse strings to open ‘er up for a few seasons, so as to give the fans the ride of their life with the best Phillies team of all time? With good health and luck, it isn’t a reach to think the Phils could win it again. And again.
Whether or not Ruben made the right choice is not up for us to decide, at least not yet. On paper, which means absolutely nothing, the Phillies have the best team in the National League, and it would be tough to argue against them having the best team in baseball, even without a super-rotation of Doc and Lee and Cole and Joe and Jay.
But still, that would have been cool, right?
44 Comments on “Cliff Lee, or Not Cliff Lee?”
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General
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Hindsight is always going to be 20-20 with this issue. We are never going to know if this deal worked until either the Phillies win the World Series (or multiple) with Halladay, or run into problems with Halladay being the only reliable pitcher in the playoffs. I honestly wish the Phils could have non-tendered Blanton, kept Cliff Lee for this year, and taken the draft picks after he left. But, we do have a very reliable starter in Blanton, and I am excited for this season.
BELIEVE!
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Halladay is essentially being paid $9+ mil of the Phillies own money for this season
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Would it have been cool to have Lee stick around and add Halladay? Do bananas go rotten???
This is a great post that says what I have been saying all along. The Phillies are in a better overall position to win for the next few years now than they would have been if they held on to Lee. It’s just the truth. Yes, Lee is far better than Blanton but Amaro made moves that put the team in a better position to win multiple championships over the next few years.
To argue against that would be silly.
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:39 pm
call me crazy and too forward thinking and it wouldnt have solved the payroll issue, but they coulda moved werth for a right handed bat and prospects
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Just a little more information (that we will never have) would help in evaluating this deal. Namely, at what point did Rube know that a deal for Halladay was even possible? If the answer is “on or before December 12th” he definitely should’ve non-tendered Blanton, that’s a no-brainer as far as I’m concerned. Another helpful piece would be how much of it was a salary concern and how much of it was a farm system concern.
If it was mostly about the farm system, I don’t really get it. People gripe about “selling the farm,” but that’s a perfectly OK thing to do if you’re getting good return (which we did), and are good enough at the top level to stay afloat while you rebuild it (and the Phillies are). Drabek, D’Arnaud, and Taylor for Roy Halladay and $6MM is a spectacular deal. It still left us with our #1 prospect, Brown, and we could’ve set about rebuilding the farm from there. For one thing, we would’ve gotten 2 picks for Lee walking in the 2010 offseason. And anyway, Aumont/Gillies/Ramirez is a poor return for Cliff Lee, and doesn’t really constitute “restocking the farm” since none of those prospects project nearly as well as the three we sent to Toronto.
If it was a salary dump, and Rube didn’t know it was going to happen before the 12/12 non-tender deadline, fine. If it needs to happen to get Halladay, I’m all about it. But at the very least, he could’ve shopped Lee better – there are plenty of other GMs that would’ve offered more for than that for Cliff. Instead, he walked right up to Zdurencik and said “can you do Lee?” which instantly deteriorates his bargaining position.
And with things like the Baez signing, and the Blanton contract, these questions are just going to become more puzzling. I’m thrilled to have Halladay, of course.
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:51 pm
@theKrisheim definitely a possibility, but while trading away Taylor, and with Dom not quite being ready yet, that’s a lot of value to shave out of the lineup, since you’d probably have to put Mayberry out there.
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Thekrisheim- are you kidding me? Werth is the only reason that Howard sees a single decent pitch. Not to mention the fact that he is coming off a stellar late-blooming break out year! If we traded a star who plays every day for a star that plays every fifth day, it would be an extremely dumb move by ruben. He did a great job bringing in an incredible pitcher and keeping our future in tact. Now the phils have to lock up Werth to a long term deal because he will be a star for a while.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Unfortunately there is pretty much no chance they are going to lock up Werth, unless he takes a big discount. Eric pretty much put it into perspective in one of the previous threads.
Also I never really got the “every 5th day” thing – the best starters have about as much value as the best position players when you break it down.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Also I just noticed on mlbtraderumors.com that the Phillies had offered Lee 3/$60MM before the Halladay deal was made.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:07 pm
So the Phillies offered Lee basically the same deal they offered Halladay? Hmmm, well now… maybe all the Cliff Lee whining can finally cease. It’s funny Blanton and Victorino both wanted to play in Philadelphia and both signed fairly reasonable offers and within a reasonable time frame. Cliff Lee turned down $60M/3 a year and then him and his agent did not bother to negotiate until after they saw Ruben moved on to the next best thing. I have no sympathy for Lee, he obviously didn’t want to here that much. See ya Lee, have fun in Seattle!
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:08 pm
I guess to be fair I should include the whole blurb: “The Phillies offered Cliff Lee a three-year extension worth $60MM or so before trading for Roy Halladay. It’s unclear whether Lee and agent Darek Braunecker formally turned the offer down, but others believe Lee will seek a longer-term deal once he hits the open market after this season.”
That’s from Jayson Stark, by the way.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:37 pm
do a quick Ctrl-F on this page and type in ‘Moyer’….you don’t find anything but my post do you? didn’t think so.
my point is, no one is criticizing the Phillies organization for signing Jamie Moyer to a 2-year, $16 million deal. $9.5 mil of which he is getting in 2010.
now whether we could have kept Lee if we didn’t sign moyer for 2010 is a different story since there are other things to consider (farm system, other players’ salaries). But still, we may have been that close to keeping Lee AND having Halladay in 2010.
PS: Seattle just signed Felix Hernandez to a 5 year, $78 million deal. He’s their future ace. Maybe Cliff doesn’t stay in Seattle after this year?
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:51 pm
I can’t talk about this Lee shit anymore. He is gone. It sucks but talking about him until I’m blue in the face isn’t going to bring him back. All I know is that Cole Hamels needs to have his balls drop this year and no I’m not talking about his changeup dropping. I’m talking about his actual testicles. He needs to come up big this year.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:51 pm
I’m pretty sure everybody is criticizing them for singing Moyer to 2/$16
also here is a tweet from Scott Lauber: Ruben Amaro Jr. said he has had VERY preliminary conversations w/Jayson Werth’s agent. “At this point, we’ve had very, very short dialogue.”
I’m pretty sure the short dialogue was “Will your client play for free Schmitters and Yuengling?” “No.”
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Actually Cole needs ridiculous bloop hits not to drop so his BABIP returns to something reasonable and he continues being the ace that he is.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:54 pm
He could try to develop a third pitch too phylan and not completely unravel when the wind blows his hair into his face a little bit during his delivery.
January 22nd, 2010 at 2:59 pm
He doesn’t need a 3rd pitch. And I really do not understand how a 26 year old ace with a nuclear changeup does a few endorsements, shows a little frustration on the mound, and has a miserably unlucky season, and all of the sudden everybody thinks he’s a big girly scrub. Oh wait, yes I do, Philadelphia.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:02 pm
i just heard from a source that the Phils signed Jose Contreras to a 1-yr deal?
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:04 pm
Gloads…I haven’t heard that but they are interested
Phylan….I’m not writing the guy off because I do think he is way too talented to just give up on but c’mon if he doesn’t piss you off with some of the shit he does then you are oblivious.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Jorge Arangure of ESPN reports that the Phillies have signed pitcher Jose Contreras. It is a one-year deal.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:07 pm
I mean, what stuff? His season must have been incredibly frustrating, and as good a pitcher as we all know he is, I think we as fans can afford not to start trashing him on every blog imaginable when he punches a watercooler or whatever. Throwing his arms up at the botched double play was ill-advised but every pitcher does shit like that once in a while. I’m sure Utley was not offended.
Anyhow, the Contreras 1 year deal seems to be legit. Not a bad move as long as it’s not for too much money.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:07 pm
@Phylan
I think the “teacup maltese” makes him a girly.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:10 pm
@Phylan….you must be out-of-market. All I’m saying is he needs to step up. I think he can do it but if he doesn’t then he better not be a bitch about it.
I like the Contreras signing…can he still bring the heat? He’ll be a nice swing-man.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:23 pm
The Phils signed Jose Contreras. Please tell me that Jose can throw lefty.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Out-of-market? I live in Washington, D.C. but I watch almost every game via mlb.tv. I hope that wasn’t a round-a-bout way of accusing me of not watching the games because I don’t have the energy to call you all sorts of terrible names today.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:32 pm
@Phylan….it was not a shot at you. I was asking because you might not be privy to all of his comments and such if you don’t get beat over the head with them daily with talk radio and TV in the Philadelphia area.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Oh, gotcha. No I read all of it. I can see why some of the stuff was annoying, but much ado is made about what players say after shitty outings in a clubhouse full of reporters looking for a big quote.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:44 pm
WOOOOO! More old pitchers!
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:55 pm
I’ve accused Phylan of not watching the games more than once. It’s fun – it gets him ALL fired up.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Cole had some terrible outings this season, but lets keep in mind that without his brilliant pitching in the playoffs the season before that…we wouldn’t have had a parade all the way down Broad Street. World Series MVP…fuck his dog purse.
January 22nd, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Yea, face it…Lee didn’t want to be here as much as he claimed.
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:06 pm
@WFCMVP….thanks man. I had forgotten about 2008.
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:25 pm
On to more important things…why the fuck am I seeing so many more yankees hats in the city nowadays?
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:25 pm
they were always there, you just have more disdain for them now
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Is someone just copying and pasting this thread from before? It’s like deja vu all over again…
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Enough with Cliff Lee. He’s gone. Why can’t you people get over that fact. Why debate something that is never going to happen.
Anyone know if its a fact that José Contreras has a tube steak the size of a muscular forearm? If so, I am soooo first in line to sample that bologne pony.
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Ya know what? If you want the Phillies to have Lee, Halladay and Hamels in the starting rotation next year, and keep Jason Werth, and do all the other stuff, buy Comcast and then give it to the Phillies. They’d have a giant revenue stream like the Yanks and Red Sox, and we could make anyone a Phillie who we wanted. Its that simple.
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:54 pm
The Phillies should actually implement their own network ala YES and NESN, it’s a goddamned moneymaker and they’re a great team in like the 4th largest media market. We could be spending Yankee scratch in a couple of years.
January 22nd, 2010 at 4:54 pm
@all things bacon
amen brother.
January 22nd, 2010 at 5:31 pm
How can you doubt a team that has been in the World Series back-to-back years, winning it once?
Given the available facts and statements, not-Cliff-Lee
January 22nd, 2010 at 5:34 pm
TEAM IS GREAT = DECISION CORRECT isn’t really convincing
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Funny thing is that I don’t hate the OLD YANKEES from back in Babe Ruth’s day, but I FREAKING DESPISE the Yankees from like the 70’s on. Their owner is part of the reason, but it’s also because they have attracted a bunch of arrogant and generally unlikable players, have an arrogant and generally unlikable (and generally filthy rich) fanbase, and the way that the media constantly feels the need to keep the Yankees cocks in their mouth NONSTOP!
And when the fucking Phillies win a World Series? Those douchebag fuckhead Yankees supporters think it was “just a fluke”
Well fuck em, and the horse they rode in on!
*takes a deep breath*
January 25th, 2010 at 10:03 am
I’m convinced. It’s a great team, at least in part, because management has added the right pieces and made smart decisions over the past couple years, some of which left fans scratching their heads (acquiring Joe Blanton, who ended up having the most success amongst trade deadline acquisitions in ‘08, letting Burrell walk for Ibanez, etc.). That’s my logic, and I am, in fact, convinced. I’m not trying to convincing you Phylan. You are beyond convincing with anything you’re not already behind (at least most of the time). Long, rambling, repetitive arguments aren’t all-too convincing either, sir.
Must be out of market…
January 25th, 2010 at 10:41 am
Bottom line is that the Phil’s ownership is cheap. Who needs prospects when you have two Cy Young winners,and a Series MVP who could win the Cy if he gets his head together, plus Blanton, Happ, and Lidge (if he’s healthy)?? Plus the most explosive offense in MLB, most of whom are under 30! Prospects my hairy yellow butt!