UPDATE, 11:05 pm: Salisbury is back again with what seems to be the most likely trade scenario:
The Phillies would get Halladay and $6 million from Toronto.
Seattle would get Lee and send the Phillies two or three players. One of those players could be sent to Toronto.
The Phillies would send at least two of their own prospects to Toronto.
According to a person with knowledge of the talks, the Phillies have decided to include Drabek in the deal. Drabek had been considered untouchable when the Phillies pursued Halladay in July. The Phillies are also expected to send another prospect to Toronto, either outfielder Michael Taylor or catcher Travis d’Arnaud, according to sources. A person with knowledge of the talks said top outfield prospect Domonic Brown was not in the deal.
The two prospects the Phillies would receive from the Mariners seem to be RP Phillippe Aumont and OF Tyson Gillies.
UPDATE, 9:50 pm: Here’s what Jayson Stark just wrote on ESPN.com:
The specifics of the trade took some twists and turns on Monday. The trade’s latest structure would send Phillies outfielder Michael Taylor, Phillies catching prospect Travis d’Arnaud and a Phils pitcher — either Kyle Drabek or J.A. Happ — to Toronto, sources said. And indications Monday night were that that pitcher was likely to be Drabek. Under that scenario, the Phillies would not have to include their top position-player prospect, Domonic Brown, and they would receive Seattle’s top pitching prospect, Phillippe Aumont, who originally appeared ticketed for Toronto.
The Phillies also would receive one other prospect — believed to be 21-year-old outfielder Tyson Gillies — from Seattle in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.
UPDATE, 8:01 pm: Jim Salisbury updated his story and now reports that the Phillies top pitching prospect Kyle Drabek is included in the deal.
There are plenty of conflicting reports floating around about the proposed 3-team deal that — in its simplest form — would send Blue Jays ace Roy Halladay to the Phillies, Cliff Lee to the Mariners, and a bunch of prospects to Toronto. Of course, all of the pieces haven’t been finalized yet, nor has the expected contract extension that Roy Halladay would sign, so let us gather some information from various baseball scribes and drive ourselves crazy trying to piece it all together.
Here’s what the man who broke the trade, Jon Heyman of SI.com, has to say:
The Phillies are in agreement on a three-team trade with the Mariners and Blue Jays to acquire star pitcher Roy Halladay while shipping Cliff Lee to Seattle, pending a few final details, SI.com has learned.
Sources indicate Halladay is likely to agree to a contract extension to complete the deal in the next couple days. The deal is not expected to be finalized today due to its complexity.
The Mariners would get Lee in the trade to complement Felix Hernandez and form a formidable rotation. Seattle and Philadelphia are both expected to give up prospects in the deal. It is believed righthanded pitcher Phillipe Aumont, a Canadian, may be going to Toronto from Seattle. Other names discussed included Mariners athletic outfield prospect Michael Saunders and Phillies outfield prospect Michael Taylor. The Mariners were trying to hold onto top pitching prospect Brandon Morrow.
Here’s the man I called insane for merely suggesting this trade over the weekend, Ken Rosenthal:
An agreement is now in place to send Roy Halladay to the Phillies, Cliff Lee to the Mariners, and prospects to the Blue Jays, major-league sources confirmed to FOXSports.com.
The sources said Phillipe Aumont — a Canadian right-hander — is among the players headed from Seattle to Toronto in the deal; the source added the Philadelphia is expected to send one of its outfield prospects, possibly Michael Taylor, to the Blue Jays.
Outfielder Michael Saunders and right-hander Brandon Morrow were also among the Seattle prospects in play.
It wasn’t immediately clear how many players would be included in the deal. One person familiar with the talks said he didn’t anticipate an announcement on Monday, an indication that the customary review of medical records is not yet complete.
Senior writer from ESPN.com, Jayson Stark:
A three-way deal that would send Roy Halladay to Philadelphia and Cliff Lee to Seattle is “close” but “not done,” according to two sources familiar with the negotiations.
As part of the deal, Halladay would agree to a three-year extension through 2013, with a vesting option that could lengthen the deal by another year or two, one source said. The extension is expected to guarantee Halladay in the neighborhood of $60 million, plus the $15.75 million he would make in 2010, the final year of his current contract.
According to a source who spoke with two teams involved in the trade, Toronto would get highly regarded Mariners pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont, Phillies catching prospect Travis d’Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. Indications are that the Phillies have balked at Toronto’s repeated requests for outfielder Domonic Brown, and the Phillies are offering highly touted outfielder Michael Taylor instead.
Seattle would send two additional prospects to Philadelphia in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency.
As of late Monday afternoon, the extension had not been agreed upon. And the Blue Jays and Phillies were still haggling over the final prospect. In addition, Phillies doctors would have to sign off on Halladay’s physical.
So in effect, the Phillies would be trading one Cy Young (Lee) for another (Halladay). And while that may seem difficult to understand from afar, the Phillies clearly view it as a swap that enables them to keep one of those Cy Youngs well into the future — a less likely scenario if they held on to Lee.
CSNPhilly’s newest employee and former beat writer for the Inqy, Jim Salisbury:
Halladay and his agent are in Philadelphia negotiating the contract extension that will facilitate the pitcher’s being traded from the Toronto Blue Jays to the Phillies.
As of 5:30 p.m., the extension was not finalized. Sources say the two sides are still haggling over the value of the extension. But those same sources say they expect the two sides to eventually agree, possibly tonight. Once the extension is finalized, Halladay will have a physical exam. That will be the final step to the trade, which has been described by sources as imminent.
Halladay will make $15.75 million this season. His extension could approach $20 million in average annual value.
The Phillies’ payroll for 2010 is expected to be around $140 million. To make room for Halladay in the payroll, the Phils are expected to deal Cliff Lee to Seattle for prospects. One or more of those prospects would be sent to Toronto for Halladay. The Phils would also have to surrender players from their system. Sources say the Phils may have relaxed their stance against trading a top prospect such as pitcher Kyle Drabek or outfielder Domonic Brown.
And here is my absolute favorite, from Rob Maaddi of the Associated Press:
Toronto pitcher Roy Halladay was in Philadelphia on Monday to take a physical for the NL champion Phillies, according to a person with knowledge of the situation – a necessary step before the teams complete a potential blockbuster trade involving the former Cy Young Award winner.
The person spoke Monday on condition of anonymity to The Associated Press because the teams had not made any announcement. Philadelphia could give up pitchers J.A. Happ, Joe Blanton and outfielder Dominic Brown as part of a deal, the person said.
Those three players also took physicals in Philadelphia on Monday.
I have no idea what you are supposed to do with all of this information, but it should keep you busy until something concrete is released. But I think there are two certainties here:
Roy Halladay is a Philadelphia Phillie and Cliff Lee isn’t.
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Oh shit…. Ohhhh Shit. Thank God I didn’t order a Blue Jays Halladay T-shirt earlier this year. Now I can get a Halladay one in a Phillies T! Even better…
One of my favorite players, glad to see him come to Philly.
Tug’s Photoshop skills are impressive. Have him put Gary Busey in a Phils uniform.
Surprisingly, Halladay is built exactly like Ryan Madson.
UPDATE, 5:03pm
Cliff Lee’s agent, Darek Brauneker, says he has not heard anything from the Phillies, Blue Jays, Mariners or anyone else today.
Now how could that be?
Ya bull shit.
I couldn’t care less about mortgaging the future to get Halladay long-term and keeping Lee for next season.
Dump Joey B. and his salary somewhere. Other options are trading Victorino or Werth for actual prospects, which would also free up salary room for Halladay in 2010.
The Associated Press also reported that the commissioner’s office granted a 72-hour window on Sunday for Toronto and Philadelphia to complete their trade.
The fact that Lee’s agent hasn’t heard anything, and that Happ/Blanton/Brown took physicals today makes me happy.
If we trade happ, blanton, and lee in this deal, who the hell is in the rotation next year outside of Hamels and Halladay?
If we trade Happ and Blanton, Lee isn’t going anywhere (this year). If we trade Lee, we still have Blanton and Happ.
It won’t be Happ Blanton and Lee. It’s going to be Lee + some prospects.
I went to work at 1 o’clock and mayhem ensues. I’m not sure how I feel about this deal but it seems , like the Phillies are going to come out like bandits. If Cliff Lee was unwilling to sign an extension and wanted to test free agency then this is the right move. The thought of Roy Halladay in Philadelphia is a beautiful thing.
There’s not point in getting Halladay if it also means giving up Lee. Yes, Halladay is better but I wouldn’t punch my WS tickets if we traded Doc for Lee. If Halladay, Lee, Hamels, #4, #5, then yes, I’m going to save my seat on broad street right now. I don’t see what the big deal of keeping Lee for 1 year and then letting him walk. (Yes, I realize Phillies don’t have unlimited budget). If Lee walks, we still get 2 high picks in return as he would be a Type A FA. Even in the worst case scenario the team isn’t in contention next year (just saying), you can move Lee at the deadline for some prospects. Again, even if you can’t make a deadline deal, you still get 2 picks b/c he will walk as a Type A FA. What’s the point of moving Lee & prospects (albeit lower level) when we can just move prospects for Doc and still keep Lee?
pete D i think the word was either Lee + prospect, or Blanton, Happ and Brown.
This is a wise move for the Phillies, in the short and long term. Once ya’ll watch Roy Halladay pitch I don’t think this will be quite as shat upon
i think this trade is uneven, unless they throw in morrow.
While it’s slightly ridiculous to actually type this, it’s probably smarter to trade Lee than both Blanton and Happ. Roy, Lee, and Hamels is ridiculous, but then do you actually have another starter?
How is it uneven? We’re getting literally the best pitcher in the MLB outside of Tim Lincecum.
phils wanks ws callin it right now, its not the safest pick but i go with my gut
Phylan, what do you think the rotation’s going to be in 2010?
I wish they would trade Hamels.
maria, that depends on a lot, but just to take a stab
Halladay
Hamels
Happ
Blanton
Moyer until his bones disintegrate/Drabek if he’s still around/some other dudes
That’s a damn fine rotation, by the way
There will be blood if Drabek’s part of this. Jus’ sayin’.
DRABEK=GONE!!! oh my!
eric to answer your question, if we trade blanton and happ im sure they will sign a lesser pitcher.. maybe even pedro.
halladay
lee
hamels
pedro
moyer/kendrick/drabek
I find it incredibly hard to believe we’d be willing to give up Drabek now after all of this. That doesn’t make sense.. at all. We would have just shipped off Drabek months ago and circumvented this nonsense.
i’m a little disappointed we can’t keep drabek around. I was hoping he could be a big part of the rotation in a year or two… definitely happy Happ is not part of this deal though.
yeah getting rid of Lee AND drabek seems a little counterproductive. i know Halladay is one of the best pitchers on the planet.. but im not less and less upside if its drabek.
Thinking more about it, if Drabek goes, they keep Lee, right? Why would you be willing to part with Drabek, Taylor (Brown?), and a 3rd prospect AND THEN still ship Lee to Seattle? You can tell me it’s about money all you want, but that’s bullshit. If we include 2 topflight prospects, you just cut Seattle out of the picture. It doesn’t make sense to keep Seattle around at that point. The whole point of having the Ms in it is to pony up some prospects so we don’t have to.
They better not trade Drabek…we are going to NEED him, with or without Halladay here. Hamels,Halladay, and Drabek could potentially be nearly as good of a rotation as Lee,Hamels, and Halladay. You do NOT give up Lee plus Drabek…it’d be idiotic.
can’t colbert hamels be involved in this? am i the only one who thinks hamels should be a part of the deal?
Blanton, Happ taking physicals is confusing to me? Why? If Lee is going to M’s, Phils can’t give up Happ and Blanton, too.
i hope halladay can play 9 innings 6 days a week since everyone else is being traded away
@Dan allegedly the physicals were part of a separate, failed deal
You do NOT trade Hamels just to keep Lee here for 1 more year. That’s a terrible idea, and so is trading Drabek…
Yes let’s trade our 26 year old phenom with a ridiculous changeup after one rough year (and by rough I mean league average) because he’s girly and I don’t like his endorsements
Phylan is right, trading Hamels is downright retarded and so is anyone who thinks we should trade 26 year old left hander with Ace potential. He had a down year where he was plagued with injuries and was severely overworked in 08.
I swear, if we trade Drabek I’ll slap a ‘ho.
Hos beware
Drabek > Brown.
Keep the pitcher.
I take it this will not be a great week for hos….
I don’t know who to believe with this. Just gonna sit back and wait for the details. For some reason I’m not buying CSNs report
So basically we’re giving up what the Jays initially wanted, minus Happ, AND we lost the pieces from the Cleveland deal? WTF?
The reality is this trade is a window-closing trade. The team is getting older. Prospects are great, but there are not enough prospects to replace everyone. Go for broke, Rube, and add to the golden era of Phillies baseball before mediocrity approaches once again.
why not trade anthony gose, and AA Reading too?
I like that Stark threw this in at the end of the column:
In other Blue Jays news, backup catcher Ramon Castro agreed to a one-year deal for around $1 million with Toronto, a source told ESPN The Magazine’s Jorge Arangure Jr.
Drabek’s a very high price to pay for the upgrade from Lee to Halladay, unless there are some highly rated prospects coming back from Seattle and staying here.
There is absolutely no way that both Drabek and Lee go in this trade. I will bet my left nut that Salisbury is wrong. The whole point of trading Lee is to get the prospects needed to get Halladay without giving up Drabek.
i think Phylan is really Jayson Stark
The Blue jays are fucking dicks.
@Phylan
I was going to say that, for sure, this was part of a separate deal. I could imagine trading Lee to the M’s and getting Halladay. And I can imagine trading Blanton and Happ OR Drabek and getting Halladay. But all of this together wouldn’t make much sense.
Where did you see that this separate deal had failed?
@Mike P it was one of the billion sportswriters whose shit I’ve been reading all day, so I’m sorry but I forget. The physicals thing was originally reported by the AP, so it might’ve been them
Maybe if we traded Blanton and Happ, we can bring back 2 Adam Eaton’s to solidify the rotation.
Or maybe Halladay can just pitch everyday.
MY LIFE SUCKS TONIGHT!! Explain why our beloved Phils would do such a thing and trade the incomparable Cliff Lee. PLEASE HELP!!
Fucking canadians.
Hey guys, how about bringing Wild Thing out of retirement, and have him close for us instead of Lidge?
Even if Mitchy Poo fucked up again, he’d still be the most awesome guy to ever wear a Phillies uniform!
This sure sounds like an intriguing deal. Anyone know if the Phils will get a good-looking prospect or two?
FUCK ROY HALLADAY… I DON’T NEED HIS CANADIAN FAGGY ASS ON MY TEAM!
Fuck the prospects dump em all get lee and Doc together and let’s win another world series
Wrecked Em is da man!! (And fuck Doc Halladay — he’s a Canadian phag!)
I DON’T WANT ANOTHER 28 YEAR DROUGHT!
ALL IN MUTHAFUCKAZ!!!1
Oops, I just made brown.
Busta Big Gload — I’m with you, bro!!
Yes please put Gary Busey in a Phillies uniform lol. That would be amazing
Wear it, Wear it. Suck on it.
HE’s Back!!!!!!
AWWW CRAP, THERE GOES A MONSTER GLOAD ON THE COMPUTER MONITOR!
I really hope if they have to choose between Draebek, Taylor, and Brown they choose Taylor. Although if the Jays were willing to do Halladay for Draebek at the deadline then why are there talks of us giving up Lee AND Draebek?? It doesn’t make any sense. In that case just cut the Mariners out of the deal and deal Lee to the Jays. I just hope we come out of it with some future….in other words two of our top 3 prospects still here. Amaro has been amazing so far….let’s hope the jays and fish don’t pull a fast one on him.
Can someone please just solidify a deal so that we can all stop this craziness? all these names involved from the phils is making my head hurt. this better be done soon!
as long as happ stays in philly, im fine with any deal.
I JUST BLEW ANOTHER SAVE ALREADY!
i hate to say it but i agree with phils43
I heard about this trade & I made brown. I HATE CANADIANS!!
Oh, and Muscles is a gay Canadian!!
I’m going to get a physical tomorrow just in case Amaro decides to include me in the deal too…
I agree with the Happ comment, but at the same time I think we need to keep Draebek and Browne. Taylor is behind Werth which doesn’t look good for him, but Browne is in place when Ibanez retires or whatever. Not to mention with all the Moyer, Pedro, other bottom of the order questions, now is not the time to give up a top pitching prospect. How much are you willing to give up now for the future?
lol nice one Gaze
I refresh the ESPN page every 5 minutes to see if there is any news on who is traded.
Instead of two of the top 5 starters of the past two years being traded in a huge blockbuster deal being on the front page, a mediocre #1 starter signing with the Red Sox is…. ok.
halladay is a mormon?
I think the quality of nicknames on this site has taken a nosedive. Seriously, they aren’t even funny. You know who you are.
9:15 PM UPDATE from Jayson Stark on ESPNews:
His understanding of the deal:
Phillies send Lee, Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis D’Arnaud; get Roy Halladay and Phillippe Aumont.
I HATE HALLADAY ALREADY — TRADE HIM. FUCK CANADA!
I need a fresh enema after hearing about this ridiculous trade.
Y’all niggaz postin in a troll thread
Getting Phillippe Aumont saves this deal.
I have a feeling we aren’t going to know a f’ing thing until Wednesday. Until then, just a bunch of reporters throwing ish at the wall, hoping something sticks.
Hi guys, just wanted to let you all know that i’m going to the Yankees!
BIG MONEY, FUCK YEAH!
@ITISM:
First, I don’t know how long we’re going to keep Werth. He’s awesome, but it’ll require a lot of money that’s going to be locked up in the likes of Utley and Howard. I also Highly doubt we’ll get Pedro back, though it’d be pretty cool. I like Brown a lot (Mostly because of the ridiculous Yardley News comment), but losing him or Taylor with Lee for Halladay would be a steal that I can get behind
SUCKS THAT I NEVER GOT TO KNOW YOU GUYS BETTER
I don’t know how I feel about this now that Drabek is involved, but at least we will get Phillippe Aumont if this is accurate.
Think of this: If they didn’t want to give Drabek for Halladay, why would they give Drabek WITH Lee for Halladay?
SKEET SKEET SKEET SKEET
I think the Phillies just got an ice cream paint job…assuming this deal is for real
His name is being bandied about, that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s in the trade
Hey guys, I heard about your website and wanted to say hi,eh.
Stop hating on my mother land, canadia, eh.
Ruben made me an offer I could not refuse, eh. I get to slam any phillys ball girl whenever I like, eh.
Amanduh, I know you read, eh I’m gonna blow gload all over your face after I start opening day, eh. Loyal fightin board fans, eh I promis I will completely pitch every game I start, eh as long as you keep that little Mexican guy behind the plate. Time to head back to Canada purchase some milk in a bag and start packing. See you soon, eh.
M’s: Lee
Jays: D’Arnaud, Drabek, Taylor
Phils: Gillies, Aumont, Doc
If that’s it, it’s not a bad trade, but it’s not the steal I was hoping for. Phillippe Aumont I believe is a top 30 prospect in the league and if his elbow troubles are gone, I’m alright with it.
No, there’s no way, we give up Drabek. That was the whole point of the Mariners.
Yes, that is the entire point of that team.
I don’t get why we even need to get the Mariners involved if we’re giving the jays the prospects they want. I feel like we’re getting hosed
Why not just send Aumont to Toronto and keep Drabek? It really seems like a pointless tradeoff of top pitching prospects, and doesn’t make a lot of sense especially since Aumont is Canadian which I would imagine is a plus for Toronto.
Also, Doc isn’t Canadian, he was born in Denver. Mike Richards isn’t American just because he plays for the Flyers.
100?
This whole thing has gotten batshit crazy. Is this because Amaro and co. have done a good job of keeping it secret, or have all of the reporters covering this just lost their minds?
Yah, I feel the same. We could’ve just traded for him over the summer instead of now, or traded Brown, kept Lee and not involved the Mariners at all (if we were the Yankees).
Although if we got Doc over the summer we wouldn’t have Francisco…
Also, I have to wonder how much of the hysteria we’re inducing…
Yeah it doesn’t really make sense that Amaro would give in with Drabek at this point but I guess if he gets Aumont in return he is considering it a wash. I’m still not really comfortable with it though.
I don’t even want to read anymore reports unless it’s final. All these trade combos are making my head explode. If Ruben is as smart as he seems, he won’t let go of Drabek. I thought the point of the Mariners, was that they would give the Blue Jays some top prospects instead of us. The whole thing is exhausting.
is lee’s $9 mil really the difference here? is that why the mariners are being included? or are they being included to make up for losing taylor/drabek? i think they should sneak pat the bat into this deal somehow.
“M’s: Lee
Jays: D’Arnaud, Drabek, Taylor
Phils: Gillies, Aumont, Doc
If that’s it, it’s not a bad trade, but it’s not the steal I was hoping for. Phillippe Aumont I believe is a top 30 prospect in the league and if his elbow troubles are gone, I’m alright with it.”
@Matt – if this is the deal, why include the Mariners – why not just send D’Arnuad, Drabek, and Taylor to the Jays for Halladay? The Phillies shouldn’t be trading Lee away for prospects – I thought the whole point of trading Lee was to get prospects to send to Toronto so we didn’t have to give ours up in the Halladay deal. This rumor if true, looks incredibly stupid to me.
Aumont is rated higher than Drabek, for whatever that’s worth. He’s only 20 though so he’s further from MLB ready.
they are getting rid of lee to save money
Getting rid of Lee to save money is pretty weird, even if he was just going to leave at the end of the year. There are guys who probably could be traded, even if basically for nothing, if you’re just trying to cut payroll.
this is the most insane fucking thing I have ever seen
/reservoir dogs
I don’t know how flexible the Phils are with money right now, but it would be a dream to have a season of Hamels, Halladay, and Lee.
That’ what im saying it doesnt make sense. I don’t understand how the Jays seem to have all the leverage in this deal all of the sudden when Doc is worth less now than he was in July, and it seems like they are getting just as much, if not more for him now. Dislike
Like, if you’re just trying to get rid of $10M, you could probably trade Ibanez. You wouldn’t get much back but someone would take him for his deal, and the downgrade from Ibanez to Francisco is big but nowhere near as big as the downgrade from Cliff Lee to “random #5 starter”
Matt, I agree. For some reason it seems like the Jays have the upper hand. If they don’t get rid of Halladay and let him become a free agent, they get nothing. I really hope we don’t give up too much or let the Jays take advantage of this situation.
@Brian-We get $9 million in salary cap space freed up by sending Lee for prospects, and we at least get some of the prospects we give up replenished by acquiring Aumont and Gillies.
I don’t understand how it doesn’t make sense, and how it’s stupid. We could keep Lee, not get our farm filled back up, be over our budget and have no money to spend on the pen or we could send Lee to Seattle for prospects and free up $9 million. Seems like a no brainer to me.
stark is now saying the m’s get lee and the jays get a few prospects plus happ or drabek…isn’t that why we didn’t make this trade in july? is ruben accepts this he has got to be shit stupid. trading happ gives us hamels halladay and blanton. thats not exactly a rotation i want. besides who knows if drabek is ready to pitch this season?
Is Aumont really that much of an upgrade over Draebek though? Everytime we heard a rumor of a trade, the opposing teams manager seemed to always go immediately to Draebek among a few others. I agree with the recent sentiment….why are the Mariners involved?
You guys need to look ahead past this coming season…we could not do this deal and keep Lee and let him walk away after the 2010 season or we could get Halladay locked up for 4 or 5 years in Philly pinstripes while receiving some good prospects in return for Lee that will fill some of the gap left in the farm from trading for Halladay.
so wait…the m’s get lee, and the jays get two guys plus drabek or happ? how does that even make sense. seriously, why are the mariners even involved?
If all this was going to amount to was Drabek Taylor and others going to Toronto I don’t get why we didn’t just do this in July
Who is this giles guy they are talking about getting? If he is a position player…. dont we have enough of those? And for those who are new here is the post from Jason Stark at ESPN in his recent posting about who we part ways with.
“The trade’s latest structure would send Phillies outfielder Michael Taylor, Phillies catching prospect Travis d’Arnaud and a Phils pitcher — either Kyle Drabek or J.A. Happ — to Toronto, sources said. And indications Monday night were that that pitcher was likely to be Drabek.”
mandi, the jays want a bumload of prospects and the phillies arent willing to drain their system, so the M’s send the phils some prospects for a blue chip in cliff lee and the jays get the youth they’re dying for. meanwhile, the phils get to keep key prospects they’re pocketing for their future.
yea but we still give up lee. can someone tell me what the point of this trade is? and why is has 3 parties?
thanks will. i gues that makes my last comment moot.
ok so ideally (and realistically)
“M’s: Lee
Jays: D’Arnaud, Drabek, Taylor
Phils: Gillies, Aumont, Doc
so: Phils get the best pitcher in baseball (for next year and beyond, at a ‘discount’), and two top rated minor leaguers while the Ms get…well, you know and the Jays get two of the guys they wanted all along and a dude with an apostrophe in his last name?
which means: Doc, Hamels/Happ/Blanton and, as @Matt says, have money for bullpen? a couple of minutes ago i was kinda pissed but now it seems to be pretty cotdamn decent
I think it mostly has to do with money.
It’s not a bad trade at all, and people will realize that once they start actually looking at it and thinking about it. At first, it seems like we’re giving up too much with Lee, Drabek or Happ, Taylor, and D’Arnaud all leaving but then you have to look at Lee for what he is: a 1 year rental with no guarantee that we’ll be the high bidder to resign him. We’re getting Halladay for a guaranteed 4 years or whatever, plus we receive a prospect in Aumont who is actually rated higher than Drabek plus Gillies.
Well if all we’re doing is trading Lee for prospects couldn’t the same deal take place in July and we get 4 months of Lee?
I just hope aumont is someone to bank on for the future. All indications were that Draebek was untouchable. Oye….
We’re not going to get the same amount or kind of prospects if we traded him in July. Think about it, would the M’s send their #1 pitching prospect out for a 3 month rental of Cliff Lee? Absolutely not.
yeah mandi the phils just didnt want to part with the amount/quality of prospects the jays want.. so Lee thing is almost like a preemtive move since he’ll go for bank on the open market after 2010. Since the phils are smart and they want to compete for the next 4 or 5 years with their current core, the 3rd party was necissary. kind of strange since gillick likely advises both the M’s and Phils.
plus, ive never been this reluctant about a three way
willH.-Gillick was also the GM of the Jays for a long time…maybe he’s helping work out a trade for all of his former teams to get what they want.
thanks will. i guess ruben will be back in my good graces if we’re all sitting on broad st. next november. until then i can’t promise much.
what does carla think? she was into this over the trade deadline
yeah matt you’re right, thats goin way back. i dont know why i didnt think of it though. think he still has ties to anyone in the front office after 15 or so years
@Brian…
Halladay told the Blue Jays that he wouldn’t waive his no-trade clause once the season started so a deal had to be done pre
will.H, I <3 comment #135. Bravo.
I don’t see why Seattle is even involved in this…I’d keep Lee for 9 mil over whatever prospects they have to offer
I think what everyone here is forgetting is that we’re getting a better deal than what the Jays originally wanted for Halladay.
We got Cliff Lee for a great run and more prospects in return for him.
We got, and still have Ben Fransisco, who I think is gonna play a big role this year, especially if Ibanez gets hurt. I like him out there more than the Stairs/Dobbs/Bruntlett platoon.
We’re getting Halladay for 3-5 years at what seems to be about 6 mil a year less than market.
We KEEP Happ (who the Jays wanted in the original Deal).
We KEEP Brown/Taylor (Jays wanted BOTH).
We replace Drabek with Armount and Brown/Taylor with Gilles.
Seriously. How is this bad. Someone please explain it to me.
Rufus Says:
December 14th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
I don’t see why Seattle is even involved in this…I’d keep Lee for 9 mil over whatever prospects they have to offer
====
And that, Rufus, is why you’re a doofus.
Lynnie, to get away from all this Roy Halladay nonsense I have good news. I found the Sophia purse. Bad news, someone bought it at an auction for $9,150.
http://wickedgayblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/estelle-getty-golden-girls-purse-sold.html
I’m excited for this deal to be done with one way or another.
In a startling turn of events the Phillies manager decides to keep Draebek and Taylor and offer himself up for trade. Wow
haha lynnie, theres always time for humor in a serious discussion.
Ok. I see your point Matt. This is just surprising to see Drabek go since they refused to let him go in the summer. But if Aumont is as good or better as Drabek then I guess I can get behind it.
buck-fifty
Holy shit…I don’t post on here since the World Series, and go and find a new job, and this is what happens? I should find a new job more often.
In all seriousness, if the Phils can get this done by signing Halladay through 2013, then I’m all for it. I’m not thrilled losing Lee, but this isn’t a video game. He was going to leave after next year anyway. Trading Drabek sucks, but replacing him with Aumont works, and we get to keep Happ, who is now a proven major league pitcher. Plus, we get to keep Brown. Amaro did the best he could with the pieces he had, and made a damn good trade if this goes down.
WAIT A MIN…. you ever think if we had lee and halladay in the rotation and they took us to the series again they could up ticket sales a little more to keep money coming in? I don’t mind paying for world series rings baby!!!Yankee style!
Ruben has done it again!!
come on… relax and think about it first off…
Drabek going..yes it would have stung…
but not when you get a #1 prospect who scouts call “an elite top of the rotation starter” ….Aumont is the real deal, and is rated HIGHER than Drabek.
Brown is STAYIN…. Taylor is gone…but is replaced by Gillies….
d’Arnaud is gone… who cares?
so the Phils get, Roy Halladay and 6 million bucks, a #1 prospect and pretty damn good outfield prospect…
so pretty much, they got Roy Halladay…FOR NOTHING…what they lost is replaced..
Ruben is a straight up BANDIT
@Brian-The only downside of swapping Aumont and Drabek is that Aumont is a little further from the major leagues, I think. He’s only 20 but they converted him to a reliever last year in an effort to hurry him up to the big leagues. Scouts say he’s got Ace stuff, so we’ll see.
Plus, he’s 6’7 which is neat-o, and he’s a Canadian so he’ll fill the void that Matt Stairs left as the token Canuck! Hell yeah!
don’t worry about drabek, aumont is an awesome replacement. he pitched really good in the wbc for canada. and taylor wasn’t leaving the minors anytime soon anyway, there was just no room for him.
MNF did a gamebreak about the potential Halladay/Lee trade as well as Jake Locker staying at Washington for his senior season. wowzies!
no
I don’t know. At first I was down with Lee to M’s, etc – getting Hallady for 3-4 years made it worth it. But I was a little concerned about losing Drabek, too. After the 2010 season what would our rotation look like?
But I guess if Aumont can fill the spot Drabek was headed for it’ll still be a good deal, but I’m just not getting the warm fuzzy on it.
Thanks for the info about Aumont Marty…. Im feeling a lot better now.
if we thought Ruben worked magic to get Cliff Lee…
pssh.. that was nothing..
this deal is un freaking real… Roy is even taking LOWER THAN MARKET PRICE to be a Phillie…that’s how bad he wants to pitch here
I get it… Lee was great…fit right in…and proved it in October…
fact is…the Phils rotation was lefty heavy
1. Halladay (righty)
2. Hamels (lefty)
3. Blanton (righty)
4. Haap (lefty)
5. Moyer/Pedro/KK
you’re top 4… best in NL… in A RUN AWAY
go sign Rodney for the pen..
we have that rotation
a line up of…
Rollins
Polanco/Victorino
Utley
Howard
Werth
Rauuuuul
Polanco/Vic
Chooch
and a pen with Lidge (which one shows up) Madson, JC, maybe Park, maybe Eyre, Durbin, maybe Condrey, maybe Rodney or whoever they sign
ummmmmmmmmmmmm
WORLD SERIES
My other problem is that I’m getting conflicting info on the Aumont v. Drabek comparisons. I’m not an expert on these things, and definitely not on what sources to trust, but the writer at NBC Sports seems to think (from the Jays’ perspective) that Drabek is “a big upgrade from Aumont,” who they were previously supposed to get. He also seems to think Aumont’s best-case future is as a closer, not a starter (and we do know he was moved to relief).
Then again, I don’t know if that guy knows shit about these things.
Hey guys, remember when Abreu was traded for next to nothing…and then we started to suck LESS?
Well, my point is that a lot of us hated the deal at the time…and it still worked out okay in the end.
Moyer, that’s what bothers me a bit too. There’s all these talks about prospects but I haven’t a real clue about their value and whatnot.
In a perfect world, we’d have Halladay and Lee.
About Abreu, I was at an Antique store in Woodbury and saw an Abreu bobblehead. That felt like an eternity (ago).
they moved Aumont to the pen in order to speed his path to the majors..
every scout has said he has #1 ace stuff…
and his numbers proved it in the minors…
look, point is… we don’t know jack about either one of this guys…
both of them could blow in the majors…or both could be #1 guys…point is, we will have to wait and see..
Aumont is rated #33 overall by baseball america….dunno what Drabek is….
Lee wasn’t going to resign with the Phillies…. so…they went and got Roy freakin Halladay who is gonna be here for 3-5 years… with Hamels for at least 2… Haap… Aumont when he is ready… maybe Blanton if they lock him up..
they will be fine…
plus… their offense will score a shit load
I haven’t heard the report that the Jays think Drabek is a “big upgrade” yet. All I know is what I’ve read about him from various scouting sites and he projects as a top of the rotation ace, a real top line starter.
As far as I know, the only reason he was moved to relief was because the M’s were wanting to hurry him to the majors and he’d get there quicker as a reliever than as a starter. As a starter, I’d say he’s a good 2-3 years away from the majors, but then again, I’m not that familiar with him and haven’t seen him pitch other than an inning or two in the WBC.
I will ask you guys this…
who is the team to beat in the NL for 2010? 2011? and probably 2012?
your Philadelphia Phillies….
I think we will all take that window…
we got our ring…just missed a repeat… and have a hell of a chance for 1 or 2 more
You know what I love the most about all of this? That Halladay was willing to take less money to come to Philly. Now I don’t know if that has more to do with him wanting to come here or wanting to get out of Toronto. I don’t know what other teams he’d be willing to be traded to.
maria, if that were just a repro purse, I’d say that was a retarded amount of money. But seeing as how it’s Sophia’s ACTUAL purse..
will.H, I needed the laugh today. Thanks.
maria it was Phils, Angels, Red Sox, Yankees..
the Phils have a ring and almost got another.
He lives minutes from their ST complex in Florida….
it just makes too much sense
maria, Halladay wanted to go to Philly, New York Yankees, Boston, or LA Angels. We were his first choice, and our spring training home is like 10 minutes from his house in Florida. That was a huge part. Plus, he wants to play for a contender (i.e. why he chose us, NYY, BoSox, Angels).
Okay, but if you go by Baseball America, we would be trading away 3 of our top 4 prospects (top 3 if it’s Brown rather than Taylor)
this isnt playstation…
you were never gonna have Lee and Halladay.
be happy we got Halladay FOR 3 TO 5 YEARS
i think that this might all be better once the season starts and we can actually see this trade happen on the field rather than paper.
what are you talking about?
because Drabek is traded?
AUMONT IS BETTER?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
why do we need Drabek??
you are a fuckin moron
you’d rather keep an unproven kid rather than trade for the BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL WHO HAD AN ERA UNDER 3 IN THE AL EAST
when it comes down to it prospects are prospects and nothing is proven until they get to the bigs… and in some cases that’s a BIG “if”. it’s kinda like college football to the pros. Does anyone actually think tim tebow will be a good player? of course not.
this could pan out as the Blue Jays getting absolutely nothing… it’s just a matter of time.
you’re a fuckin moron if you don’t like this deal
tell me why Drabek is a must keep?
because 6 months ago, reports said he was untouchable??
THINK ABOUT IT
ruben isnt a moron… if he said “Drabek is untouchable” …and now IS TRADING HIM…
but GETTING A #1 PROSPECT BACK IN RETURN…DON’T YOU THINK THIS PROSPECT IS PRETTY GOOD…
if now Drabek is traded
Ruben isn’t an idiot
trust the guy
Dude, Marty, just ignore that jackass. He’s been here all night talking all kinds of retarded shit. Just ignore the troll.
i’m just saying…
we’ve all said it… won’t know these prospects until they get up to the Show
all I know is Aumont has an ERA of about 2.50 last year…with about a K per inning…and a low walk count..
oh, and he hasn’t had tommy john surgery either
Dom Brown is still here waiting to take over for Werth once he leaves and gets paid (Red Sox I bet)
the Phillies are gonna win the East by 10 games in 2010…
Hey, AnalLover, I’m not really angry, and I’m pretty average sized. Unless you’re referring to what’s in my pants, which could actually pass as a little person, but only when it’s happy.
I get that the Jays and Phils deal was more or less independent from a 3rd team, but that just makes me feel like me came up with a raw deal in the Cliff Lee portion of the trade. We couldn’t have gotten a better deal than the 2 Mariner’ prospects? I feel like we should have shopped him a bit more (to the Yanks or Sox etc.) if our only goal was to get rid of him for some prospects. I guess in the end we’ll just have to hope the guys we got from the M’s make it worth it.
Should Halladay’s age be a concern with a 4-5 year contract? Someone needs to reassure me that this is what’s best.
I’m not worried about his age one bit. I think Halladay at age 36 or 37 will still be worth every penn we’re paying him, and then some.
Matt (#193), maybe they don’t want to face Cliff Lee, if he were the Sox or Yankees in the World Series. We’re less likely to see the Mariners. But I could also be completely off.
Matt-
Me thinks the RAJ was playing this one really smart. The only teams that would be interested are potential competitors in the WS or just didn’t have the talent to move around. I guess we could have got some back end reliever (which we still might pending some reports about Morrow coming to Philly) but all in all, I’m not worried about what the Mariners may do, because we don’t have to play them and won’t see them at the end of the year.
If we do I’ll eat an old school pilots hat and you tube it.
Matt: Why the fuck would you shop Lee to the YANKEES of all teams? Don’t you think we already had enough trouble with them in this years WS, and you want to give them ANOTHER ace to go along with CC? No amount of prospects would be worth that, unless they were godly and nearly Major League ready.
Yeah Im worried now if we keep such a potent offense under contract for much longer. Yes we built the team from scratch, but sooner or later they all command top dollar.
I trust our scouts W.R.T. the Aumont/Drabek comparison, but I’m not sold on the deal. If we get to keep Dom Brown and J. A. Happ I’ll be happy, though
200?
Damn…
I need to go to bed.
I promised myself i’d get drunk tonight…and I didn’t
Ugh, these rumors/speculation/semi-confirmed reports are KILLING ME!
All this talk and I really want to see Gary Busey in a Phillies uniform. That cracked me up (2nd comment above)
I guess my thinking of shopping him to the big time teams is that Cliff Lee will most likely end up on the Yanks or Sox or somewhere else after 2010 anyway when he’s a free agent, so it would
have been beneficial to get something from them. I’m just not hearing enough about the 2 prospects we’re supposedly getting for Cliff to be happy about that portion of the deal. I feel like Lee is worth more than those 2 prospects.
I don’t know how I feel about this trade. Mariners need to give up more prospects and send them to Philly. They can’t just get CLIFTON PHIFER LEE for Aumont and Gillies…
I agree that Lee should be worth more than 2 prospects, especially if Halladay is…so I wish we could get more, but it’s hard to say what we will get for sure…until some official announcements are made. By the way, I would rather see Lee for the Sox than the Yankees. While the Sox aren’t my favorite team, I find them a lot more tolerable than the freaking Yankees, who are the ABSOLUTE LAST TEAM I would want the Phillies to lose to in a World Series…and we’ve already done it twice
Anyone know how long they’re going to torture us with this tomorrow? I can barely handle this through the night and I don’t know how many different rumors my head can take.
If you want to know more about the prospects look up…. Marty outlined it about as nicely as a non scout could.
I really loved this trade prior to Passan’s stupid article. I still like the trade though.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AvP8_V7T03C9cajwBzbUsSQ5nYcB?slug=jp-halladayleetrade121409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Remember, Morrow has been mentioned from the start and I still wouldn’t be surprised to see Philly get ‘em even though he’s not all that.
The thing about Passan’s article is that he saying we should have given Toronto a shitload of prospects to get Halladay and keep Lee. We’d have both for one year and who knows after that. There’s little guarantee that the Phillies would be able to sign either to an extension after 2010.
That’s also not mentioning the payroll.
All this shit is making my head hurt.
Sorry if this has been posted, but the newest iteration is:
SEA gets Lee
TOR gets Taylor, Drabek, D’Arnaud
PHI gets Halladay, $6 million from the Jays, Phillipe Aumont, Tyson Gilles, and a third prospect from Seattle
Along with Halladay signing a discounted extension, that’s a good deal in my book, especially if the third guy is infielder Carlos Triunfel
If Carlos Triunfel is part of this deal then I’m even more impressed. He’s a top 50 and would be J-Rolls successor. He’s only 18 right now and they say he has unlimited upside. I agree with ya Phylan.
Yeah, definitely agree if Triunfel is part of the package. Plus another $6 million…
Throw in an Xbox 360 to the Phils and its a done deal. Sorry Im tired…. corny humor comes naturally this late
The deal will come apart in a dispute over a 360 or a 360 elite
Make it an XBox 360 Elite and we’ll throw in Jamie Moyer and an old copy of “Signing Bad Contracts for Dummies” by Ed Wade that he left here. He’s even got a whole chapter highlighted about the great deal he got on Adam Eaton.
Agree with Phylan. Mariners need to give up MORE!
Lol definitely with a future yet to be determined next gen system to be announced
Adam Eaton was the biggest waste of space, perhaps ever. Philly fans would not be sad if he took a long walk off a short bridge
What about the Ring of Death?
Just thought I’d bring up Adam Eaton so everyone bitching about how this is a bad deal can remember what a bad deal actually is, and make people thankful for Ruben Amaro Jr. and Pat Gillick.
If the 360 gets the red rings of death, we have to send them Kyle Kendrick every other weekend for 4 months.
As much as I’d like to keep Lee, I feel like this latest incarnation of the deal (if it’s the final incarnation) makes a lot of sense. Basically we trade Drabek, d’Arnaud, and Taylor for Halladay. Is that a stiff price? Sure, but it’s probably fair market. Since we can’t sign Lee beyond this season, we trade him while his value is at its highest. The 3 prospects–especially if that third prospect is Triunfel–make it worthwhile. This props up the farm so that the Phils will have some players to go to once this core starts getting old.
In an ideal world, everyone would have kept Lee 100% of the time. But since the Phils have to work in a budget, this makes a lot of sense.
Now, our rotation is:
Halladay
Hamels
Blanton
Happ
______
Does Ruben have the budget to pick up a 5th starter? Or are we looking at the Moyer and Kendrick show? Also, will Ruben go after a relief pitcher? The rest of the offseason will prove to be interesting, indeed. And I’m sure that this prospective trade will be blown out of the water within the next 25 minutes.
What do I do with my Lee shirt? Can I trade it in for a Halladay. I hope so.
Matt, that’ll make Toronto think twice about including an Xbox.
Guess they will be mad they didn’t trade for a wii. haha just kidding.
Yeah so much for bullpen being the focus of their offseason. Do they have enough money to sign their arbitration players in the lineup AND RETOOL their bullpen? We’ll see how sneaky sneaky Amaro Jr. is
The latest version of this deal has the Jays sending us $6 million dollars, so that basically covers the pay difference between Lee and Halladay. I think we’ve still got money to go after another a bullpen piece or starter if we can get the right deal, or possibly still go after Kevin Correia but I doubt that.
Who is Kevin Correia? Sorry…. just haven’t heard of him
Maria: I would just keep the Lee shirt personally, just for all the fond memories from 2009.
Still feel really sad that Lee is going, especially after that amazing Playoff run this year
Having a hard time believing that Halladay could have matched Lee’s playoff record this year, although I have no doubt it’d be close.
After all, CC Sabathia is touted as one of the best pitchers in Baseball…and he SUCKED compared to Lee!
At least in my opinion.
@shatmyself-Correia is a 29 year old starter for the Padres. 33 starts, 198 innings, 3.91 ERA, 1.30 WHIP. Basically, he’s a cheap starter but he’s due for a raise this year and the Padres are cheap asses who are trying to stay under $20 million or whatever so they’re looking to move him…he’s a perfect guy, he can easily be a good mid/back end starter for us.
The Padres non tendered, then re-signed Correia, Matt. They won’t be trading him.
Oh really, I hadn’t heard that…I’ve been so wrapped up in this Halladay stuff that I didn’t even realize that…Oh well, maybe we can still go after DJ Carrasco if he’s still available. I’ll have to look.
So why cant we just hang on to Cliff, trade Fat Joe Blanton and then give up Cliff as a free agent for two draft picks after 2010 too fill up our farm system? If Seattle isn’t actually trading to Toronto it seems like a waste to let Clifton go. Gonna miss him.
By the way Moyer will be our 5th starter, he’s a God amongst men.
Nobody wanted Blanton. He’s due to make around 7 mil for this season. Who is going to agree to a trade where they take on 7 milion bucks for one season of Joe Blanton? They would have to eat a chunk of his salary, which defeats the purpose of trading him, and in baseball the contracts are garaunteed so you can’t just cut people lose (see Eaton, Adam and Jenkins, Geoff). If there was a way to get Blanton off the books in order to keep Lee, they would have done it during the winter meetings. As it is, since they are giving up Drabek and Taylor, the Lee trade basically gives them Seattle’s version of Drabek and Taylor.
Wait a minute…you mean we CAN give up Drabek in a trade to get Halladay?! So we COULD have had both Halladay and Lee last season?! WTF?! I want my world series trophy back!!
Mike – if there wasn’t this thing called “money” then, yeah… you could have had both. But, unfortunately, owners don’t allow managers who already were at a max budget to add 12 million dollars of payroll one season, and 24.75 million the next to make a run for a year.
Rube is doing this right – as Jon said up there, the payroll works out, you deal high end prospects, but from the looks of it, they are getting a fair amount of talent back. Maybe not the equivalent, but pretty darn close (Take a look at what Tyson Gillies did in AA at 20 yrs old last year).
He’s added a better pitcher (despite what lee did in 4 games in october last year) who will be here for at least 4 years instead of 1 year – and in the process, he’s kept the farm fairly well stocked.
Having lee and Halladay here at the same time just wasn’t possible. I know we all love to ignore farm systems, and we all like to pretend money isn’t an issue – but Rube is doing something that took a ton of creativity – he is building a BETTER team (even if it is only slightly, I would argue its a fair amount better), he’s staying with in his budget, and he’s giving us a shot to win not just this year, but for the next decade.
I would imagine that Blanton would have great value once D Lowe is out of Atlanta. He would be the next best option for any team looking for a starter- and at 7m he would be a bargain compared to D Lowe at 15m.
The latest from Stark is that the potential 3rd Seattle prospect is Juan Ramirez. How does he compare to the Triunfel you guys were hoping for? RHP is all I know about him.
@Moyer – Ramirez looks to be a mid level prospect. He was rated higher than that (2nd or 3rd rated starter in their org) but he looks like he put up a bit of a disappointing season last year. I have read some reports that claim he is a solid back end of the rotation type prospect (makes me think of JA Happ in terms of prospect level).
Essentially, he would add some quality depth to the organization at the upper level. I think he threw a a full season at High A last year, and if Drabek is dealt, our quality of pitching at the AA and AAA level will suffer. He and Aumont could both bolster that tremendously.
@lighthouse – I know Blanton is stable, but GM’s still have their choice of some free agents as well. Lowe’s horrendous contract aside – would you rather pay Blanton 7 million or a guy like sheets or harden that type of 1 year deal with a much greater upside? Not to mention Pinero who is still out there with the possibility of multiple seasons.
I don’t know the answer myself. I’m sure many GM’s value guys who throw 190 innings at a league average clip, but 7 million is an awful lot to invest in a league average right hander. Given the number of teams who already have claimed in ability to add payroll, I just don’t see a huge market for him out there.
i love everything about this trade.
Buster Olney (I think) wrote an article about Ramirez last year and said he can be a No.2 starter. Aumont had projected as an ace, but Seattle has been trying to fast track him to the majors by turning him into a reliever, but he’s 6’7 and throws in the high 90s, They’re not Seattle’s best prospects, nor are they guys who are ready to jump into the roration, but as good as Lee is, he’s a rent-a-player for Seattle.. getting 3 of their top 10 prospects is huge.
Who is this fake Jon?! I am the original Jon! Either way, very insightful comments, other Jon. I’m not as on-board with this trade as you are, but I agree the package of prospects is a pretty good one. I still wish the Phillies had shopped Lee earlier and gotten an even better package if they realized they’d have to move him to acquire Halladay.
I know there’s no way we could have both Lee and Halladay for 2010 from a payroll perspective, but this Halladay deal is pretty much the deal Rube said “no” to last season, and if he could have brought in both Halladay in a direct deal with the Jays — and Lee — since the players involved are all different, then we WOULD have had the pitching necessary to beat NYY.
We were only 1 Ace away from killing the Yankees in the World Series, and after this trade…we’ll STILL be missing one ace. You all better hope Hamels doesn’t suck next season, because he is going to have to be ’08 Hamels if we want another World Series.
But wasn’t J.P. at the helm then? Who knows what the real demands were. Ruben offered 5 players last year, and the Blue Jays rejected it. They were different circumstances.