Dec
03
2009
The Gigantic Melon Of Placido Polanco Rides Again
Posted by meech.one at 10:36 am ET
205 Comments
Here’s the scoop, kiddies — Placido Polanco is BACK (via Todd Zolecki and his Zo Zone):
A baseball source said this morning the Phillies are close to signing Placido Polanco to a three-year, $18 million contract. The contract also includes a mutual option for 2013.
The deal is pending a physical.
So it’s safe to assume that Polanco will take over the third baseman duties that were handled so nicely by Pedro Feliz since 2008. He is also likely to bump All-Star/Gold Glove/Newlywed Shane Victorino from the second spot in the lineup. Granted, Placido is an absolute perfect #2 hitter in any lineup (especially this one), but I don’t think Shane will be too pleased with that decision.
Polanco Close to Three-Year Deal | The Zo Zone
205 Comments on “The Gigantic Melon Of Placido Polanco Rides Again”
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General
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:41 am
Would rather see the Phillies pick up DeRosa. After getting rid of Fleiz – signing Polanco is just a “push” hitting/fielding wise. $.02
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 am
If this was a Polanco vs. DeRosa decision then Ruben definitely got it right. But meech is right, he needs to hit second. Shane hit well towards the bottom of the lineup in the playoffs in ‘08 and he will need to suck it up and do it again.
I’m sure Ruben saw all those damn solo shots we hit this year and thought- “If only Jimmy and Shane wouldn’t have just popped up.” Hopefully Polly and his gigantic head solve that problem.
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 am
Career at CBP: .344, 12 hrs, 48 rbi in 87 games
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 am
6mil is a lot of a utility player in year 3…
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:59 am
I would’ve rather had DeRosa, or even Pedro back. But… in Ruben I trust.
Welcome back Placido.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
Awful signing. 3 years and a mutual option for a fourth? For a guy that is 33 and already declining physically, to move to a position that requires more arm strength? Which he hasn’t played in 4 years?
And why exactly would Polanco be hitting 2nd instead of the guy with the superior on base percentage?
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:01 am
And why so early in the free agency period, without even feeling out the market for Beltre? Christ, Rube.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:13 am
Come on Phylan, awful? Dude just won a Gold Glove, is younger than Feliz, and has a similar career OBP to Shane. Plus Shane has excelled when he’s batted 6th and I think I would be good to have a switch hitter and that speed towards the bottom of the lineup.
I’d take DeRosa as a bench guy, but not our everyday 3rd Baseman.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:20 am
So is Polanco our everyday, starting 3B, or is there a shot we still go after Figgins and/or DeRosa, thereby making Polanco and/or DeRosa bench guys who can ALSO play 2B, SS & 3B (and, in the case of DeRosa, OF)?
It is so much easier to throw money at players when it isn’t (directly) my money!
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
He won his gold gloves (which are meaningless) at 2B. He hasn’t played 3B in like 5 years, who knows if he stil has the arm strength and reflexes to be effective there.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
Beltre is represented by Boras and is seeking a big contract, just like Figgins. DeRosa is not a good 3rd baseman, and personally, aside from power, he’s not that big of an asset offensively. Polly plays great defense, should shift well over to 3rd, and can hit for average. Expect an average around .300 with 10-15 homeruns.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Nate McClouth won a gold glove too (and Chase Utley somehow has not). If this was a 1 or 2 year deal I wouldn’t really care. Well, yes, I would, because again, Polanco hasn’t played third in 4 years. People who’ve watched him say he was slowing down at second, and while third is easier to play, it requires a lot of quickness on your feet, as opposed to the long range that second requires. He could be a butcher there now, and we have no idea. And he’s there for the next 3 or 4 years at $6 million per. It’s just insane what a perfect fit Beltre is for the Phillies. At the very least, wait and watch how the market is shaping up.
Also, using career OBP is generous to Polanco and unfair to Shane.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 am
If Polanco can put up an OPS around .850 like he did in 2007 I’ll be happy. Hell, if he manages an OBP of .350 I’ll be happy. It just seems very unlikely at this point. And you have to weigh that against whatever he does at third, which is a complete question mark right now.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
Wanted Chone… buut
Welcome back Placi-do, Pol-anco!
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
I’m taking a stab and guess signing Placido means that Beltre’s gonna accept the Mariners arbitration.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:29 am
holy shit, someone get this dude a hat.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 am
Only way this works for me is if he’s a top (1 or 2) of the lineup guy. I don’t want to see a .300 hitter sitting idle in the 7 hole while Jimmy is swinging for the fences first pitch. I’m not a big fan of this being a 3 year deal either…
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
This signing is eerily familiar..people complaining about the length and structure of a contract for a thirty-something year old player, questioning the player’s defensive skills, wondering what the hell Ruben was thinking. Oh, that’s right, the Ibanez signing last year is what im thinking of. How did that turn out again? In Ruben I trust.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
Remember that time they traded him for Urbina because they had that great signing of David Bell at third and couldn’t move him and Chase needed to play every day? Ugh. So glad Ruben is in charge. Placido should have never left in the first place. It’s return week in Philadelphia.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
I don’t see why we have to put Polanco at the top of the order just because Jimmy should be batting in the eighth hole. How about
Victorino
Utley
Werth
Howard
Ibanez
Polanco
Ruiz
Rollins
Pitcher
Charlie should really have different lineups for RHPs and LHPs given some of the insane platoon splits on this team *COUGH* Howard *COUGH* but he never will.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
Jon, Ibanez turned out well for about the first 2/3rds of last year and the World Series. Let’s see how he does the next 2 years, making $10 mil per in his late 30s and coming off of shoulder surgery. Judge decisions on the circumstances at the time, and not the outcome.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
I should’ve said “first half”
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
Lack of depth at third base in the system is why it’s for three
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:35 am
Someone on 610WIP said it could be a 2 year deal worth $11Mil. Forgot who was being interviewed.
Oh, did anyone hear Mike Schmidt call Pedro Feliz “One of the best defensive third basemen of all time”?
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:38 am
If it’s 2/11 that’d be more reasonable, although you still have to wonder about him at third.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 am
Ibanez might be the most consistent player in baseball. Every season he goes on a 60-70 game tear at some point in the season. Last year he just happened to do it to start the season with a new team and it made him look like a hero. As Phylan said, lets see him repeat his performance over the next two years before we concede that it’s a good idea to sign guys in their mid-late thirties to multiyear contracts upwards of $5M per.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:43 am
Nice head, bet it comes with a free bowl of soup. Looks good on Polly though.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
Scouts have told me that he’s looked his quickest since ‘03
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
glad to see Rube got in polanco’s ass & signed that big headed f*ck
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
Did we used to call him Polly Pocket? I think I have a vague memory of that.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Career #s:
Polanco: .303/.348/.414
Figgins: .291/.363/.388
DeRosa: .275/.343/.424
Beltre: .270/.325/.453
All these guys have a career OPS+ in the neighborhood of 100. Polanco’s a pretty good pick out of this bunch.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Plus, in the Polanco vs. Figgins discussion, not only will Figgins command a larger contract than Polanco, but Figgins is a Type A free agent, so the Phillies would have to give up a first round pick to the Angels to sign him.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
It’s not just about OBP, people. If Polly knocks a groundball to second to move up a runner he doesn’t get on base, but he does the job. Shane is a pop-up fest. Charlie always talks about having a balanced offense, and all this move does is help to create more balance.
I agree with Phylan and others who are concerned with the third year in the deal, though. I would assume that Beltre’s injury concerns, combined with the loss of a draft pick and Boras’s shenanigans, made him less of an option.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:07 pm
At least we kept his hat for him to use again.
http://nineteen69.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/wpenn.jpg
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Love Polanco in the 2 spot. I love Victorino as a player, but Polanco is a better fit at 2.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I never really thought Figgins was viable. He’s going to land some ridiculous contract that will probably be an overpayment in its latter years. There is a lot of value to be had in Beltre though, who is only a type B.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:11 pm
And when it comes down to it, for me, I want the guy with an OPS that is 80 points higher (Shane) batting higher in the order. He gets on base much more, and gets many more bases when he does, which is how you set your team up to score runs.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Why worry about moving Vic out of the 2 spot when Jimmy is still hitting #1? He’s one of the worst leadoff hitters in baseball.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Can you imagine what that big headed baffoon would look like in one of those David Wright / Shane Victorino batting helmets?
Amandah, I’d love to do naughty things to your feet.
Love,
Wes Chamber-Maid
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm
It’s official. 3 years, $18 Mil. Can;t complain.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I’m back and I’m trapped inside Ruben Amaro Jr.’s body.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Great! Now I have to make sure he doesn’t get into my locker and steal my hat!
-Sam from Mt. Ephraim
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
I got through about 12 comments and realized how fucking stupid all of you are. I think the comment that really set me off was “how do we know he can still play third?!” How fucking ignorant and stupid are you idiots? Do you think the Phillies are signing guys to play a position that they are physically incapable of playing? You don’t think they have ways of finding out if he can make the throw? Seriously?
Many of you (if not all) that hate this signing also hated the Ibanez signing. Do the city a favor and stop trying to critique a move that we made in the off season before giving it one fucking day to pan out. Especially when it’s at a bargain price.
Here’s another point, morons.. consider the cost. We need to resign either Werth or Lee. I hate to break it to you, but we cannot just spend whatever amount of money on peripheral players and still afford to keep the core. If we pay Beltre 10-12 then you can forget about signing a core player. Think about the economics of these moves.
This isn’t rocket science. This is signing a nice third baseman, who really has minimal obligations to perform. If he catches the ball, we have more than enough hitters to compensate for any poor hitting. Hell, Feliz was WORTHLESS in the playoffs with the stick. But no, keep crying Philadelphia.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
and dont forget, placederrrs is moving back to the NL where the pitching isnt as tough. then again, he did play in the central..
either way, im happy. Im not too worked up over signing older players.. i didnt see too much resistance about the raul signing and it worked out ok. me likey right handed .300+ bat. think about the possibilities with our lineup. ill miss ol pedro though
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:51 pm
is it safe to say our buddy Eric has underlying issues that he needs to address?
Eric, you’re the reason they invented weed.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
hahah, Eric is funny. E-mail me man, I’ll smoke a joint with you.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Completely agree with BigMiles
Polanco should complement the rest of the lineup perfectly, with consistent, good ABs and situational hitting. And NO STRIKEOUTS. We have plenty of power and strikeout hitters, we didnt need another one like Beltre or DeRosa.
And nobody should want DeRosa at this point. If Rollins needs a day off we can out Castro in there. If Chase needs one we can put Polanco at 2B and play Dobbs. The money we have left now should be used for the bullpen. Bring back Chan Ho and sign a top closer type like Lyon to setup and close if needed.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I’m a rocket scientist and I find all of this extremely confusing
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
I’m in law school now, so I had to give up the weed temporarily. It certainly adds to my anger issues. Last final is the 15th, so I’ll be much more gentle at that time.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm
@PhillyCuban…..mang! I’m not good enough to spot start for any team including your local 12 year old town travel team.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm
You’re of course correct, Eric, other players, the team’s future, and economics, I had not considered any of these. I never even think about them, certainly not for most of my boring work day. Nor do I write about them, ever, at any particular website. Or read about them, ever, at any website where people post shit about the Phillies all day. Thank you for reminding me.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Also are you under the impression that the Phils recently tried out Polanco at third or something? Because I have bad news for you.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
@ Puddy. they also kept his helmet too
http://www.thefightins.com/tug-haines/two-lucky-fans-get-a-free-bowl-of-soup/
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
can bruce ruffin still pitch?
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Meech, can the birdland store start making “placi-dome” oversized hats? just a thought
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I told them I would take 2 years with an option for a 3rd. They said I was too young.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Phylan – whether or not they actually tried him out isn’t the entire point. I have to assume Ruben & co. are aware that Polanco can play a reasonable 3b for them to sign him. I’m going to give them that benefit of the doubt. Maybe I’m wrong, but to sit here and argue the validity of that point is stupid until we see him out there. I have no reason to doubt Ruben yet, and to start on the notion that they possibly signed a guy who can’t reach 1st base is absurd.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Why are you assuming that, and how would they know? That’s what I’m asking.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:14 pm
eric do you bite your computer as you’re typing?
and i half agree with you about polanco. i like the price and the bat, but the glove is still a mystery. he might have won a gold glove at second but we all know the transition isnt easy. 3rd is a stationary position.. just a reaction.. therse no flow to it like there is 2nd base. you cant size up a ball like you can from deep in the hole, its just a split second stab. you know all this so i dont need to ramble, third base isnt a lock for him so it remains one of my few concerns.
also, can polanco still run? he was never really fast to begin with, so im not sure if he adds average speed or below average speed at his age (that might keep him out of the 2 hole).
Anyhow, Phylan, as a detailed baseball man like yourself, you dont see any upside to Polanco? DeRosa sounded attractive but i’ll settle for an above average hitter who rarely strikes out.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:20 pm
@ Eric
Fuck yeah on the rant! I love this signing, and I like him hitting 2nd or 7th. The lack of recent experience at 3rd is a minor concern, but I think it’s going to pan out.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:26 pm
I am assuming Polanco can play third because we just signed him to play third. I’m more interested in the peripheral arguments, like the economics and bat. He may not play a gold glove 3B, but when the Phillies sign a guy to play third, I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have a clue that he can play 3B.
I’m fully aware of the obvious flaws in that argument, but I’ll just ignorantly stand by it. Nobody knows if he can actually play third this year, but like I said, we signed him for that purpose, so you have to assume he’s going to be serviceable at a minimum. How do the Phillies know that? Well they run a professional organization, and again, they get the benefit of the doubt. Had this been the Phillies of the late 90s, I would be more inclined to bitch and moan. As the team stands now with the fantastic organizational work they have put in during the past 5 years, they get the benefit of the doubt.
This is far from me being assured that he can play 3b without a doubt, but for the sake of argument right now, I’m working on the assumption that he’ll be serviceable, mainly to avoid the unanswerable question – can he play 3b?!!! Who knows right meow, but to blast the Phillies for making this move is premature and uncalled for at this time.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Even if Polanco’s below average speed at this point, Feliz runs like he’s got concrete shoes on. He’s almost Pat Burrell slow.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I like this signing (not that it matters). Polanco hardly ever strikes out, something this lineup desperately needs. I am fairly certain we all griped at the amount of whiffs and men left on base last year..this will help a bit. Chollie will have some major flexibility with his lineup. I would also still love to see DeRosa signed to back up all these guys in the infield, but not likely anymore I guess. I would like to see the phils work on getting a pitcher who has also closed before….
Billy Wagner is also a Brave now….I predict an implosion from him by the All Star Break.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
One NL source told me that after Polanco releases a throw from 3rd base, the ball just dies after 35 ft. and drops like an anvil straight to the ground. I don’t know why they’d want a guy like that on the hot corner. That’s what my NL source said.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
And I’ll throw my batting order out there:
As always, Charlie is going to fuck around with the lineup as he sees necessary. If Jimmy is hitting well, you let Placido bat 2 to move the runners around when necessary. If Jimmy is struggling, I think you need Shane 2 to act as a second leadoff hitter again. I think that’s a likely scenario to start with.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
“but when the Phillies sign a guy to play third, I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have a clue that he can play 3B.” is basically the part I have a problem with. But I guess you know that.
Anyhow, will.h, I do like Polanco’s BB/K ratio. He’s definitely an upgrade over Feliz. It’s just that, 9 times out of 10, if you’re a GM and you jump on a guy this early without seeing how the market is going to shape up, you get burned. Especially if it’s a 3/4 year deal for an aging infielder.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I don’t think we’re gonna get too burned with this move, though. We aren’t looking to add stars at a high price. We have a nice three year option with a guy who can bat anywhere in the lineup and (presumably =) ) field the ball averagely. Six mil is not going to hinder our ability to sign the more important players long-term. I think it’s a nice little move with very little risk.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Well there is a slight risk of “cannot actually field the position adequately.” And “may show the decline of a mid-30s player sometime in the next 4 years.” And “head deflating as fluid-filled skull sack bursts.”
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Seriously, I’m pretty sure that’s flammable material in their
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
THERE
my bad
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:57 pm
i’m kind of skeptical about this trade just like the rest of yous, but i trust Ruben. didn’t he bring in some good closer whose name i now forget? and clifton?
on a side note, i feel bad for placido’s mom. childbirth must have been a bitch.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
here we go already with people bitching. “Oh I wanted Beltre or DeRosa!!” Do you people freaking watch the damn game? Beltre is old, slow, and sucks. DeRosa is not good enough to start at 3B for the WFC. He is a good bench player or fill in for a small period of time. Polanco is a good signing.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I, for one, never wanted DeRosa. Also Beltre is 4 years younger than Polanco, and has been and is still an elite defender at third base so I’m not sure where you’re getting the “old slow and sucks”
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
http://www.massholesports.com/2009/11/not-one-yankees-player-shows-up-to.html
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I guess it’s worth asking, did any Phillies show up to the 2008 debut of their World Series film?
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:21 pm
phylan i was there selling paaaRO-grrrrems
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:34 pm
what people here dont get is that its not just a straight up comparison between feliz, polanco, derosa, figgins, and beltre. This deal was the most amazing bargain the phillies could get. He provides a TRUE #2 hitter in a lineup full of whiffers. This guy has played 3b before, and he may not be as good as feliz, but he increases the depth of our lineup dramatically since he can hit in the 2 spot. but ABOVE ALL ELSE, the reason the Phills went after him was because he wasnt offered arbitration. Thus, we dont have to give up our first round pick for him. This gives us the opportunity to sign another Type A free agent, as Ruben has said that he is willing to sacrifice the pick. For only 1 mil more per year than feliz, I’d say this is a steal.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Phylan, I believe Ryan Madson went last year.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:42 pm
I was there last year with the homie MattP from The 700 Level. I got in a fucking accident when some WHORE backed into my car outside of Cavanaugh’s beforehand.
Madson was there, Amaro was there, Montgomery was there, and so was the Phanatic.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I think Eric’s earlier comments about looking a couple years down the road makes a lot of sense.
Basically, we had no cheap options for third because we have no organizational depth there. SO the best option is to lock up the cheapest guy on the market who is still a reliable bat/glove. That’s what Polly is. I agree that Beltre would have been a phenomenal fit but that doesn’t take away from the fact that Polly is a pretty damn good fit as well.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:48 pm
To the person who said like seventeen hours ago that Polanco shouldn’t have left in the first place…
As I recall, the Phillies wanted to move him to third, but he steadfastly maintained that he wanted to play second only. That is when they shipped him off to Detroit for Oogie. It was a “get something for him while we can” deal.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
i wish we still had Urbina
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:55 pm
i wish we still played at the vet
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:58 pm
The last game I went to at the Vet, there was an enormous dead rat above my head that was trapped in the netting that “protected” the tvs on the lower level. I can’t say I miss that.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm
lynnie i miss the fact that you dont miss that
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Beltre is a type B, Tigers would’ve gotten compensation but the Phillies wouldn’t have to have given up anything. And what is it about a .330ish OBP guy that makes him a TRUE #2 HITTER anyway? All this lineup mythology makes my head spin sometimes.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I miss parking being 10 dollars
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Placido looks like Gazoo. Jussayin’.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Phylan, it’s just baseball fans having a “feel” for the structure of a lineup. There is no exact science, but he is the “type of player” who can get that job done.
You are getting caught up in a debate about where he should hit. You should be focusing on more important issues – like his ability to throw the ball to first base.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:41 pm
I think I made it clear that I’m concerned about that as well.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:49 pm
i’ll miss Pedro…
=[
but lets trust their decisions
=]
everyone knows what happened with Pat…and we got Raul…not thinkin he was gonna do shit
but he was phenominal…hopefully Polanco can be the same!
dont have doubts everyone!
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:51 pm
By the way, just some notes on Beltre and how he would have negatively impacted the ballclub:
His career high in dingers is 48 and he did that once, unsurprisingly. His next highest total is 26. That was the only year he ever eclipsed the 100 RBI mark.
In a non-steroid year, he typically averages about 23-25 dingers a year, some nice pop.
He has struck out over 100 times in 5 different seasons, something the Phillies need badly to cut down on. His highest walk total is 61, and that was some 10+ seasons ago. Again, the lack of patience at the dish is a problem.
He has exactly 15 career post season ABs.
His fielding numbers are average, but nothing mind blowing. Looks like he commits about 12-15 errors a season.
The worst number is his salary last season was 13.4m. If you wait on this guy, I think the absolute best you could hope is that the number drops somewhere around 10m, if it were to drop at all. he has been durable in the past, with this past season being his first real injury plagued campaign.
I think it would have been risky to wait on a Beltre or Figgins and let the market then take a known commodity like Polanco out of the picture. I do think Beltre would have been a nice addition on some level, but I don’t think the baseball blowjob that we are giving this guy is all that deserved.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Thoughts: His BB/K ratio is about half of what Polanco’s is, so yes that’s a plus for Polanco. I love a guy who can walk. I don’t see what postseason ABs has to do with anything. Fuck a RBI. Also fuck a fielding percentage. In the last 2 years at 3B, Beltre’s UZR/150 at 3rd has been 15.7 runs saved above average and 21.0 runs saved above average. Polanco’s is . . . 0, because he hasn’t fucking played a game there since 2005. By +/- (http://www.fieldingbible.com/), Beltre is the best third baseman in baseball for the 2006-2008 period with +63 (Feliz is second with +55). Polanco is . . .well, you know. To his credit he was the fifth best second baseman in that period with +29. (Chase Utley is the far and away leader with +85. Chase Utley owns at everything. Have I mentioned that)
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Also allow me to compile a list of things that the “error” stat tells you about a guy’s fielding:
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I’d guess this has already been talked about, but I don’t have time to read through all the comments. If Polanco is the “perfect” #2 hitter, wouldn’t it make more sense to have Victorino lead-off and move Rollins to the 6 or 7 spot? Nothing against Jimmy, but he’s never been exactly what you envision for a lead-off man, he might do really well a little lower in the lineup.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Yes, that would be fine. Charlie will never do it though. Rollins will lead off until either he or Charlie dies on the field.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Post season ABs.. just a side note of little relevance. I didn’t say every point was going to blow you away, just musings.
RBIs, absolutely no reason to overlook that stat. While it may be overrated to some, it’s still a sign of production. It doesn’t directly correlate to hits or some other arbitrary stat, but it does give some indication of how a guy performs when he is supposed to. You get credited with a ribbie in a groundout, flyout, etc. It shows me that he understands situational hitting, to some extent anyway.
Anything you said after that was complete gibberish to me. It turns out I’ve been arguing baseball with a guy who thinks the only indicator of a player’s talent is purely measured in sabermetrics, which is just a horrifying argument. That does explain why you have no idea how important it is to have a two hole hitter who can drive the ball to right field. Maybe if you watched a handful of games as opposed to reading the FJF/PKA of a player’s worth against his salary and home field you may understand the game a little better. Seriously, what the fuck is a UZR?
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Time for everyone to dig out their “Polanco” jerseys they had in storage for four years.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:20 pm
99 and….
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
100! And a polanco pumpkin to celebrate!
http://cdn.faniq.com/images/blog/49a4829549524762f0e2a3436a3bd361.jpg
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
UZR and +/- are defensive metrics, and probably the only decent ones there are available. You could google them, they’re not that complicated. Neither is anything else I said. In fact if you took 3 seconds and read about it, that stuff can tell you a lot about a player’s defense. And as for the accusation that I apparently don’t watch the games, I’ll just provide my normal, reasoned response to that: fuck you.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Phylan I’m fairly sure he was referring to you watching a bunch of Tigers games the last few years, which you most likely did not. Why are we all arguing about a guy who just won a Gold Glove on the defensive side? Sure, it may be a new position and winning a Gold Glove doesn’t mean you are definitely the best, but he will be good enough.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Oh and they’re not made up shit, they’ve been developed over several years, are compiled by companies whose sole purpose is to analyze baseball, and are part of the decision making process for every respectable baseball front office. This is the case with most sabermetrics nowadays, and for good reason – they tell you what kind of value you’re getting out of a player you’re about to invest millions of dollars in. Of course, some GMs use them more wisely than others.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Gold gloves are voted on by managers and coaches, who basically throw out names of players they saw make great plays against them and have no real evaluative process to it. It’s one of the worst awards, honestly. McClouth has one a Gold Glove. Chase Utley has not, as I said before. And whether or not I have watched a handful of Tigers games (which I have) is irrelevant because in none of those games since 2005 has Polanco even played at third base.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Remember when Bobby Abreu won a Gold Glove?
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:43 pm
EVERYBODY JUST CALM THE FUCK DOWN.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Wow, Phylan is actually more of an obnoxious dickhead than I am. We have all given anecdotes and reasons why we like the Polanco signing, but nothing is good enough for you. We like his bat, we like the value, we like the years. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether he can actually get the job done at 3B. Your only lousy argument is repeatedly saying “well it’s been three years since he last played there!!!” Ok, great man, nice argument. He hasn’t shown any of us that he is incapable of playing the position. You’re guessing just as much as we are. The difference is, you just assume you’re right. Get off the high horse, sabremetric man.
I would also like to apologize on behalf of the group who is happy that we just signed a gold glover to play the infield. How silly we must be to assume that may mean he has a clue how to play the infield. Nobody is tucking it in the waistband over a gold glove award, but it shows competency if nothing else.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:53 pm
I have given some things I like about Polanco: Walks a lot. Better than Feliz.
And by no means am I assuming I am right about him at third. He may be perfectly fine there for all I know. But nobody has any idea, Amaro included (despite your willingness to assume he somehow magically knows). The question is, why go for a guy who is a total question mark at the position, when for a little more money, you can have the guy that is definitely elite there? This is about the thousandth time I’ve heard the “get off it, arrogant math man!” when citing relatively simple numbers that say a lot about a player so I’m just going to ignore that shit.
And even discarding how stupid an award a Gold Glove is, he won it at 2B. But you knew that.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:54 pm
I can’t believe I miss 100 again.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:57 pm
relax Phylan. Polanco is a solid signing. Doesn’t strike out, can spray the ball all over the field, is a good clubhouse guy, and wears a size 8 1/8 cap. Can’t go wrong there.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Phylan, which player are you signing for a little more money that is elite? If you’re gonna come at me with Beltre, I need your definition of “a little more money” and “elite.”
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I don’t know about “all over the field,” his OPS to the opposite field is .608, up the middle is .599, and pulled is 1.098. Seems like mostly a pull hitter to me. That really doesn’t matter though, obviously my primary concern is his defense, and the length of the contract at his age.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Beltre. “A little more money” = $10 MM per, “elite” = elite defender at 3B, the best in the league by one measure. As I’ve covered.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Ok two things:
1) We’re now assuming Beltre is available at 10 per year. I don’t know that that’s a valid assumption yet. As I said earlier, you run the risk of trying to get him to come down to that price and missing the other FAs. I think this was the right move, at the right price, at the right time. If Beltre could have been had for 10 a year, it would skew my argument a little but, still don’t know that it’s necessary to get him.
2) You can dismiss the “arrogant math man” argument all you want, it does not make it invalid. Strictly analyzing a sport by the numbers is always a bad idea. It can help to give you an idea of a player’s worth, but it is not purely an end-all. Math men hate to use “intangibles” and other unquantifiable aspects of a player in an argument, but it does not make them right. In looking at any player, there is more than just strictly production and fielding to look at. You may not like it, but things like hustle, locker room presence, likeability, etc all do play into the signing of a player. The worst thing you can do, especially in baseball, is divide the locker room. These guys hang out for 6-7 months straight. The numbers argument only takes you so far, and you absolutely have to look at other things that numbers will not tell you.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:19 pm
1) I’m not assuming that, I’m making an estimate. And FOs involved in negotiations always know when a deal is about to go down – it’s one component in the agents assuring the best deal for their clients. You can let the market shape up a bit, see what numbers are being thrown around where, without missing out on anyone you’re willing to bid up for. Polanco/whoever you’re trying to sign will always have more leverage to ask for money/years when you’re stumbling all over yourself to sign them in the first week of FA.
2) I don’t even know what to say to this. These are the metrics by which front offices themselves evaluate players. Baseball, more than any other sport, is quantifiable and has a massive sample size of data to work from, and people do that because nobody watches all 2,430 games in a season, has a flawless memory, nor the totality of camera angles or the sufficient eyesight acuity to judge a fielder’s speed, or a baserunner’s decisions, or a batter’s plate discipline over those 2,430 games. Likewise, nobody can avoid confirmation bias, whereby your brain more easily disposes of events that conflict with a pre-existing theory you had, for example “Ryan Howard always takes a pitch on a 1-2 count!” Once you are convinced of something like that, you will always forget the times he didn’t. This is why numbers are important. And I’d rather have a guy who is a smart baserunner than one who “hustles,” and I’d rather a guy who OBPs .410 or an ERA of 2 than one who has “locker room presence” or “likeability,” because those are worn out sports cliches. Go ahead though, build a team out of those cliches – you’ll find yourself on the wrong end of them.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:25 pm
And I’m not saying you have to give a shit about the numbers. You don’t. But don’t be surprised when people tell you “this guy is worth [x] runs on defense” because that’s fucking useful shit to know, man.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Useful is one thing. The math guys claim the numbers are the end-all. When someone tries to even bring up the word “hustle” the response is always “oh thats bullshit, according to such-and-such it’s a lousy move.” Intangibles exist on some level, whether the math guys want to believe it or not. The ability to look at a number and give this supposedly incredible argument gives the math guys a hard-on that is unstoppable. To build an entire argument around the numbers of your choosing is a bullshit way to argue, but it’s now you want to roll.
I’m not saying you have to give a shit about things other than numbers, but don’t be surprised when somebody who actually watches baseball calls you a fucking idiot.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Shoulda signed Amandah’s aunt.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Again, accusing me of not watching baseball. Apparently I’m wasting a lot of money on my annual mlb.tv subscriptions.
(Fuck you)
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:29 pm
I’m not sure about this. I thought Feliz wasn’t that bad a bat, and fantastic at third. I kinda hoped to see him return. I guess it’s not that big of a change, though. We’ll see what happens in April…
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:40 pm
i can’t picture shane at the bottom of the line-up. would he be sixth? seventh? i’m being an idiot but someone help
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Probably sixth. Really though, he should lead off.
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Phylan is my co-pilot.
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:01 pm
With all the talk around town that’s been revolving around concussions lately, I’m wondering how many Polanco has had. That is one seriously swollen membrain. (intentional misspelling that will not result in a follow up post apologizing for another “my bad”).
And, I too agree, Billy (the dickhead) Wagner will most certainly collapse upon himself by mid-summer. God Almighty I can’t stand that asshole!
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
You are wasting a ton of money on the mlb.tv subscriptions. Clearly you only care about what the stats tell you, so why even bother watching?
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Because baseball owns utterly and entirely, and is the best fucking sport on the planet, and I love to watch it whenever possible, and I’m out of market and can’t watch the Phillies on TV, and because if the Phillies aren’t on I want to watch a Cards game because Pujols is Jesus, or a Mariners game because they’re my favorite AL team and Felix is incredible to watch, or a Giants game because occasionally Kung Fu Panda will fall on his fat fucking ass when I’m high as fuck and can’t stop laughing about it, or a OH WAIT why am I explaining this to some anonymous person on the internet who I do not give a fuck about
December 3rd, 2009 at 7:35 pm
I think we can all agree to the first 15 words or so of Phylan’s latest post. Pitchers and catchers can’t report soon enough. I’m sick of pulling up philly.com and seeing bull shit Eagles’ headlines or nonsense about A.I. I enjoy watching the Eagles and all, but baseball is so much better.
December 3rd, 2009 at 8:02 pm
tug+phylan=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0
December 3rd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
As long as I can be Turk
December 3rd, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Mike P speaks the truth
December 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 pm
As long as Polanco hits with RISP all will be OK in the world.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:51 pm
this eric guy is alright if he types all normal and shit.
phylan you’re cool too, but thats automatic. you score 9.3 on the CGS.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 pm
fine. can i be the janitor?
December 4th, 2009 at 1:47 am
im pretty sure phylan never actually watches the phillies. shane victorino is the EPITOME of swing at the first pitch, make a horribly unproductive out. He’s been a great player, but is the antithesis of a two hitter or a leadoff man. I’m not saying jimmy has been exactly an ideal leadoff man, but he is our leader, so he deserves that role. Polanco rarely strikes out, which is the most important quality in a two hitter, in case you forgot.
Phylan is one of those fans who fantasizes about the phillies signing every ideal player out there: after we sign beltre, we can add harden, mike gonzalez, valverde, and fernando rodney. Then we can deal for halladay and add derosa to our bench. Finally, we’ll trade for miguel cabrera so that we can platoon him with beltre. But dont forget about when we call up Dom Brown, Michael Taylor, and Kyle Drabek so that they can all vie for rookie of the year.
People forget about how expensive it’s going to be to lock up cliff lee. Getting a bargain on polanco was crucial. Lee if the kind of pitcher who can command over 15 mil per year, and I think that locking him up will cement this franchise as a contender for years.
December 4th, 2009 at 1:52 am
Hmm that is an interesting entirely fictional collection of information you’ve made up about me, thank you.
December 4th, 2009 at 2:25 am
I guess it’s worth addressing though.
In fact, this is what I was talking about with the confirmation bias stuff. At some point in the season you probably saw Shane swing at the first pitch and pop out to short or whatever, and pounded your fist or yelled “fuck” like I tend to do. The difference is, you then developed a theory in your head that he does that really often, and every time you saw it from then on it reinforced that theory, and your brain kind of ignored all of the times he didn’t. That’s what confirmation bias is. I also watch the games (more on that later) but I supplement it with, well, actual information. Shane Victorino swung at the first pitch in 10.66% of his plate appearances last year. The league average is 11.19%. Furthermore, when he DOES swing at the first pitch, he hits .300/.311/.443, so he’s not exactly a slouch when he does. Now don’t get me wrong, I hate it when dudes swing at the first pitch – it’s a horrible display of plate patience and just generally is a bad idea. But I just thought I’d clarify on how often Shane does it because you were, you know, completely wrong.
While I’m on the whole “real information” horse, the league average for the number 2 hitter in the batting order in 2009 was .275/.337/.417 for .754 OPS. Shane, in the number 2 spot, hit .307/.370/.467 for an .837 OPS. Wow! Totally weird! Shane is like, way better than the average 2 hole hitter! Meanwhile the average leadoff guy, who hit .245/.292/.413 in that sp – Oops, no, I’m sorry that’s Certified-Clubhouse-Leader-and-therefore-Undisputed-Leadoff-Hitter-because-by-golly-he-deserves-it Jimmy Rollins. The league average leadoff hitter actually hit .278/.347/.410 for a .757 OPS. Wow, that’s a lot better than Jimmy Rollins. Not Shane though. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, all I look for is efficiency in the payroll department, and players that fill the needs of the team. Beltre fits that bill. Were I the kind of fan that you’ve imagined me to be, I probably would’ve been knocking down the door for Figgins, when I in fact argued with quite a few people about that. And if I wanted every great reliever on the market (which I don’t, but one or two solid ones are necessary, along with one or two low-risk guys) I would certainly not include Fernando Rodney. Taylor and Drabek will likely both see some time next year, though probably in mid-summer or as September call-ups, and certainly not ROY time. Dominic Brown projects to be ready in 2012 or so. As far as Cliff Lee goes, I would certainly love to extend him, but let’s wait until mid-summer, when it is clear whether the longest season of his career in terms of innings had any effect on him. I expect it won’t, but it can’t hurt to see. He won’t be any more expensive then.
Anyway I still owe you my “You don’t watch the games!” rebuttal of choice: Fuck you.
December 4th, 2009 at 2:28 am
Oh and I forgot to throw in there that Victorino had a higher BB/K ratio than Polanco in 2009 (0.85 to 0.78), which some dude on the internet reminded me was the most important quality in a 2 hole hitter, in case I forgot.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:02 am
good sign, ruben. i just read somewhere that he’s never struck out more than 50 times in a season. i’m pretty sure pedro struck out 50 time in the playoffs.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:16 am
For a guy who doesn’t care about explaining himself to anonymous people on the internet, you’re doing a number on this message board
December 4th, 2009 at 8:33 am
@Pat If it was only going to take $15M/year to resign Lee, the Phils would do it in a second. Especially after last year’s WS performance, I can’t imagine him demanding at least $20M.
@Phlyan Do you think he’d take a mid-summer extension? My concern about waiting on Lee is that if he waits until midsummer, he’ll just wait out free agency and take a ridiculous contract from the Yankees that the Phils can’t match. I’m not too freaked out about the workload. He had 231.1 IP last year. He had 223.1 IP the previous year, and wasn’t adversely harmed. I know the extra month can screw up a pitcher’s rhythm in preparing for the next year, but Lee is just so damned durable that I can’t imagine it screwing him up. At any rate, my point is that I’m so concerned about letting him slip to free agency that I’d put together the package now, knowing full well the risk that comes with it.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Seth Everett was on the WIP morning show today saying that the Phillies are very much alive in the Roy Halladay sweepstakes and if it becomes a rental situation for a year, the Phillies might be the frontrunners.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:58 am
They gotta start selling “PLACIDO” sized hats at the clubhouse store. I’d buy one to cover my car.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Take it for what it’s worth but Fox Sports said that the Phils asked Orlando Hudson to make the switch to 3rd and come to Philly. He did not want to.
Really Ruben? I am beginning to get a little uneasy with Ruben’s line of thinking and tightened purse. Don’t get me wrong…I think he dominated 2009 except for this team’s woeful bench (and it still is woeful by the way) and the bullpen, although that was mostly due to injuries and a complete meltdown by Lidge. This team is now in the same league as the Yankees and Red Sox. It’s time to start acting like it.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Phylan – Polanco actually doesn’t walk much, he just hardly ever strikes out either.
The Phillies struck out 9th most out of 16 NL teams last year even with Howard in the lineup, so I don’t really see the need to go for a guy just because he doesn’t strike out much.
3 yrs / $18M isn’t a big deal. I mean, Feliz got $5M last year to hit .266/.308/.388. Yikes.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:42 am
gaze, do you think its possible the phils might be baiting the sox or yanks to overpay for a guy like halladay. as great as it sounds, is it a realisitic idea to aquire halladay? im wondering who the phils are willing to give up by this point.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:47 am
I think this was smart economic move on Amaro’s part, and I think it was safer to sign him to a 3 year deal because of the lack of depth in the farm system at 3rd currently. Ruben saw early that Beltre and especially Figgins would financially be out of reach if we were to keep the core of players we have. This team was built in the farm system, a patiently developed roster with the right amount of home grown talent, and maybe not the most flashy, but the most suitable other pieces to fit around that core (Lee rather than Halladay, Ibanez over Burrel contract demands), that said, I really dont think signing a player like Beltre or Figgens would be in Amaro’s mantra and signing Polanco is more his style. Theyre not the Sox or the Yankees, were not going to go out and list all the available players, pick the one with the highest contract, and sign him. Theyre going to make the right moves for this team, not because Buster Olney says Figgins Ricky f**king Henderson reincarnate. I like the signing and I think His Headness will be a great clubhouse fit given his previous history with the franchise. I understand where phans are inclined to react so quickly and so judgementally to a decision like this, but we have to realize that this isnt the Ed Wade era anymore, and we have to move past that and begin to trust the teams decisions and the way they try to move forward as an organization. Ruben has done an amazing job thus far and we have no reason to throw him under the bus like that. All in all I think its a smart move on the front office’s part. We’ll see how it plays out.
Either way its only 3 months til spring training ball starts. Phuck Yeah.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:49 am
I didn’t even read the whole thread, I just wanted to comment about this lineup posted earlier:
“I don’t see why we have to put Polanco at the top of the order just because Jimmy should be batting in the eighth hole. How about
Victorino
Utley
Werth
Howard
Ibanez
Polanco
Ruiz
Rollins
Pitcher”
That has got to be the worst lineup ever imagined…seriously, do you like baseball? Do you know baseball? Do you know the phillies? The best power hitting 2nd baseman in the game batting 2nd? Ruiz ahead of rollins? LOL! Here’s their everyday lineups (pending injuries).
Vs. RHP:
Rollins
Victorino
Utley
Howard
Werth
Ibanez
Polanco
Ruiz
Pitcher
Vs. LHP:
Rollins
Polanco
Utley
Werth
Howard
Victorino
Ibanez
Ruiz
Pitcher
December 4th, 2009 at 9:50 am
@Mike P I don’t think either side has engaged it seriously yet but I am assuming Cliff wants to stay. In which case, it wouldn’t really matter. Not sure though. I would love to lock him up.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Yes I am fairly familiar with baseball and the Phillies. Maybe you SHOULD read the rest of the thread actually. Why are you leading off with Rollins?
December 4th, 2009 at 9:55 am
@tom
Vic is a better leadoff hitter than J-Roll. He actually draws a walk once in a while.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:57 am
phylan, you think charlie will stick with jimmy as the leadoff man after this past season then drop him to the 8 hole the very next year?
December 4th, 2009 at 9:59 am
also, i dont think victorino has the head for leadoff (not that jimmy does either). As a leadoff my ultimate goal is to get on base, not swing at anything at or around the plate. maybe its a personal flaw in shanes case.. or else its charlies gameplan–spank a few early fastballs so the pitcher starts to nibble. I used to think vic was a perfect leadoff option until i saw him do it a few times this year. meh
December 4th, 2009 at 9:59 am
It was never a discussion of what he was likely to do, simply what he should.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:59 am
I think I covered that in my giganto post
December 4th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Phylan,
If we signed beltre, it still would dramatically cut into what we had left to sign our ACTUAL NEEDS. You know, like a bullpen and a bench. Maybe resigning Lee. Those are probably the most significant needs to address. Considering we still have the BEST offense in the NL, I’m not too concerned about the fact that we didn’t waste money on a player like Beltre.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:06 am
phylan, you and your giganto posts. i hope you dont teach children with ADD
December 4th, 2009 at 10:08 am
PS Phylan, where the hell are you finding these sweet ass stats about swinging at the first pitch and such? I can’t argue with the Elias Sports Bureau, that’s just unfair.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:09 am
That’s just it though, Beltre wouldn’t have been a waste of money. His added value over Polanco exceeds the extra money you’d pay, and it’s not like the Phillies have a massively tight budget after a record attendance year and 2 world series appearances. It would not hamper any of those things. Plus you’d be getting a guy who you are certain can field the 3B position.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:10 am
@Pat, http://www.baseball-reference.com, look at the “batting splits” section.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:19 am
The Phillies budget this year is reportedly up to 140 mil. MLBTradeRumors.com claims that our current payroll is around 130 while other reports say its around 120. Still, signing beltre would cost 10-13 mil per year, so there goes at least 50% of the money. You have to account for arbitration raises for chooch, shane, etc. I’d rather not spend the entire budget now, go into the year with money to spend, and be able to make the decision to lock up Lee long term. Lee’s raise will be anywhere from 6-15 more than the 9 mil he makes now.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:21 am
@will.h
The way I see it, there are 4 main players in the mix for Roy Halladay: Red Sox, Yankees, Angels, Phillies. The Angels have their hands full with John Lackey and they really seem to want him back. Combine that with the loss of Figgins and I think they have their hands full. The Red Sox have the most to offer and the most to gain and are probably the most likely candidate, however the Yankees will enter the mix to keep him away from the Red Sox. That bidding war alone will probably lead to Halladay staying put. The Yankees have little to gain and don’t have enough to give up. The Phillies, on the other hand, have a huge gorilla in the corner of the room with Cliff Lee desiring to test the free agent market. Having wrapped up arguably the cheapest option at 3rd base, they put themselves in position to spend more than just a few dollars to fill out their pitching. The top relievers on the market likely won’t take a setup role, so I’m predicting a few cheap reclamation projects for the bullpen. That leaves a decent chunk of change on the table before hitting $140M barrier. A trade for Halladay would likely cost them Brown, Drabek, Happ, Victorino, or Werth but I think they have a better shot at getting a long term deal with Halladay than Lee.
Pure speculation on my part, of course…
December 4th, 2009 at 10:27 am
gaze,
thats all we can do at this point is speculate. I feel like if they were to give up brown, drabek, happ and werth or victorino, they would have done so at the wishes of ricchardi back in august. i dont even know how i feel about it.. give up those studs for one guy. i know we killed this argument back in july, but if the phillies are serious contenders for halladay, i suppose we’ll all be at it once again..
December 4th, 2009 at 10:31 am
I don’t think it would take all of them. Possibly just one of them and some other fringe guys. The price for Halladay has really hit rock bottom because they have to get rid of him by the spring or get absolutely nothing in return for him.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Yea, you just argued points against me.. points that I never made. I simply said I think Placido should bat 2 because he has the ability to make a lot of contact and he knows when to swing and when to take a pitch. When Shane gets into a funk, its noticeable and problematic. There is no science to making a lineup, especially in Charlie’s case. I simply said you let Jimmy lead off (I’m not supplying numbers, as we ALL know it’s going to happen). I then said if Jimmy is struggling, let Shane bat 2 to act as a 2nd leadoff hitter. It’s what Charlie is probably going to do.
By the way, you are one whiney little bitch. Calm yourself down.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:34 am
The outfield is weird, with Brown and Taylor poised to come up. I feel like the most expendable of the outfielders is Ibanez but he’s got the biggest contract. I guess it depends what it takes to try to resign Werth and Victorino.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:36 am
If you’re talking to me, that huge post was directed at Pat. I don’t really care what Charlie is going to do, because I know it will involve Rollins leading off, I was just speaking hypothetically about optimal lineups.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:40 am
phylan, you think jimmy is less optimal than ruiz?
December 4th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Chooch (.255/.355/.425) hit better than Jimmy (.250/.296/.423) last year but I don’t know if I’d expect that to happen again.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:54 am
don i know, its deceiving because jimmy had one of the worst years of his career while chooch had the best of his. lets hope jimmy snaps out of it and ruiz maintains or even gets better in his young age.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:58 am
I think Ruiz also gets some extra walks because he hits in front of the pitcher. To his credit, though, he takes what they give him.
I would definitely lead off Vic over Rollins, though.
December 4th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Ruiz probably won’t have as good a year as he did last year, and Rollins probably won’t have as bad a one. Even when Ruiz was an offensive black hole though, he still managed to not really swing at bad pitches, and get on base at a greater than .300 clip. I just don’t know if Rollins can really do that as well. I hope he can. Rollins is still very valuable because of his defense. It’s just if he can’t hit as well as he used to, it hurts the team to stick him in the leadoff spot just ‘cuz
December 4th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Also, interestingly, if you look at pure production per $100,000 made, Ruiz provided far and away the most bang for the Phillies’ bucks last year. He got paid $475,000, which for his offense (.255/.355/.425) and defense is a massive bargain. It’s the equivalent of paying Chase Utley $1.66 MM for what he did in 2009.
December 4th, 2009 at 11:14 am
He’s still on the new player discount plan. It’s hard to compare those guys to anyone with a real contract.
December 4th, 2009 at 11:19 am
like cole made what, 900,000 the year he won the WS MVP. Howard made some ridiculous low rookie contract money when he won the league mvp too.
December 4th, 2009 at 11:20 am
No doubt. Just found it interesting.
December 4th, 2009 at 11:25 am
I believe you are the only person in the universe who found it interesting.
December 4th, 2009 at 11:27 am
is this where I come to make fun of aunt laurie now?
December 4th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
I miss you Laurie-Bear. Please forgive. Please forget.
What’s that athletic neice of yours up to these days?
December 4th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Figgins going to the M’s for $36M over 4 years… suddenly not liking the Polanco deal so much.
December 4th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Can’t we all just get along? In a show of Phillies kumbaya, let us mock the Mets who are clearly NOT in the running for any marquee players. That at least brings us all a measure of comfort.
December 4th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
gaze, at 9 mil a year it might have left the phils a little skinny to pay anyone else to improve the club. although an extra 3 for a guy like figgins is pretty tempting given his age/ability.
December 4th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Figgins hit under .250 vs lefty handers last yr. I ll take Placido’s right handed bat. Fits the lineup better.
December 4th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Not saying that Polanco wasn’t the right move, but jumping early doesn’t seem to mesh well with the way the market is shaping. If the top guy available is getting $9M, Beltre and DeRosa can forget about $10M contracts.
That said, by comparison the Bobby Abreu deal is starting to look downright horrendous!
December 4th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Not that I think we should’ve pursued Figgins, but this is kind of my point about what happens when you jump to sign guys early. Polanco or Beltre’s price would certainly go down with Figgins taking 9 per.
December 4th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Gaze beat me to it
December 4th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
My hat size is 7 1/4 f’ers. Not that big.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
I got 5 on it for the crazy long posters. Calm down. In Reuben I trust.
December 5th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
who is reuben? and why do you trust them?
December 5th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
the sandwhich?
December 6th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Don’t argue with delicious
December 6th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Side note: according to ESPN insider, Ed Wade and the Astros are interested in Brett Myers. What a surprise!
December 6th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Will you add a new post already? That fucking head creeps me out every time I check for an update!
December 6th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
193, baby.
December 7th, 2009 at 12:28 am
Ed Price is reporting that Blanton is available for trade. He suggests that it’s to clear salary for relievers, but I have a hard time believing that they wouldn’t go after another starter–Halladay? Or maybe cheaper options?–if they get rid of Big Joe.
December 7th, 2009 at 8:18 am
mike P,
john lackey?
December 7th, 2009 at 11:31 am
All the stuff about cutting salary has been pretty consistent (along with settling for Polanco), so it seems like they really are trying to keep it around $140 MM, unfortunately. So it wouldn’t really make sense for them to trade Blanton for a pitcher that will make a lot more money this year anyway. If all of that is true, they must think Drabek is ready now, but that still leaves a need for a 4th/5th guy. If that’s the case, they could target a cheap guy like Justin Duchscherer (however, he’s been offered arbitration), Jarrod Washburn (no thanks), Brad Penny (see previous), or Doug Davis. Or they may pair a reclamation project like Ben Sheets with a committee of 5th guys like we saw last year. That’s fairly risky with Drabek also in the 4/5 area of the rotation.
Of course, this is all speculation. I don’t think Blanton will be moved. If he is though, I hope they package him with a prospect and go after a half decent reliever. All the news about trying to sign Brandon Lyon is . . . disturbing.
December 7th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Fun to dream about Halladay-Lee-Hamels-who-cares-about-4-and-5 though, damn
December 7th, 2009 at 11:41 am
For the posting triple threat, some questionable source reports that a 3 way deal has been done in which the Mets have acquired Pat Burrell. http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2939&sn=t
December 7th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Halladay, Lee, and 2008 Hamels.
December 7th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Oh, and for the 200th, I already posted about Pat the Frat.
December 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am
and 2001 Moyer, 2008 Happ and 1972 Carlton.
December 7th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
This is probably a relevant time to post this: http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb/default.asp#top
Sorry in advance about your day’s productivity
December 7th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Well, maybe it’s a good thing that Phylan’s link is blocked by the school district’s firewall…
December 7th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Eric- can’t we all just smoke a joint and get along???
December 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
I may smoke a joint after tomorrow’s first final. If I come on here and make less sense than usual, you will know if that was the decision.